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Abraham Zapruder - Under Oath -
Authenticates His Film

STATE OF LOUISIANA
versus
CLAY L. SHAW


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The Indictment that brought Clay L. Shaw to trial:

THE INDICTMENT.

"The Grand Jurors of the State of Louisiana, duly impaneled and sworn in and for the body of the Parish of Orleans, in the name and by the authority of the said State, upon their oath, PRESENT That one CLAY L. SHAW, late of the Parish of Orleans, between the 1st day of September and the 10th day of October, in the year of our Lord, One Thousand, Nine Hundred Sixty-Three, with force and arms in the Parish of Orleans aforesaid, and within the jurisdiction of the Criminal District Court for the Parish of Orleans did willfully and unlawfully conspire with DAVID W. FERRIE, herein named but not charged and LEE HARVEY OSWALD, herein named but not charged and others, not herein named, to murder JOHN F. KENNEDY, contrary to the form of Statute of the State of Louisiana in such cases made and provided and against the peace and dignity of the same."

Signed ALVIN V. OSER, Assistant District Attorney of the Parish of Orleans.
No. 198-059 (M-703) Section 'C'
STATE OF LOUISIANA versus CLAY L. SHAW
INDICTMENT FOR VIO R.S. 14:26 (30)
TRUE BILL /s/ ALVERT V. LaBICHE, Foreman of Grand Jury
New Orleans, March 22, 1967
Returned in Open Court and recorded and filed March 22, 1967
/s/ GEORGE W. PLATT, Minute Clerk

Clay L. Shaw was a respected New Orleans businessman. It was also later learned that he was a contract agent for the CIA.

Shaw passed away in 1974. He is the only individual ever prosecuted in respect to the assassination of President Kennedy. When New Orleans District Attorney Earling Carothers "Jim" Garrison heard that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested for the assassination of President Kennedy, Garrison remembered that a Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested only three months earlier in New Orleans while Oswald was passing out pro-Fidel Castro literature on a local street corner.

"Somewhere in the vortex that was the Clay Shaw trial," writes Walt Brown and Jan Stevens, "the American people began to see conspiracy emerging in the death of John F. Kennedy ...

"The case was weakened by several of the witnesses Garrison was able to produce, many of whom had credibility factors weighing against them, as well as by the death of [David] Ferrie, who knew too much to ever sit in a witness box.

"The case was also damaged by the volume of interested government officials, some of whom may have had agendas other than seeing justice done. Garrison was denied extraditions and/or subpoenas of witness like Allen Dulles, Richard Case Nagell and others whose testimony could have had an important impact on the outcome.

"The testimony of police officer Aloysius Habighorst - who had booked Shaw and noted Shaw’s admission of the "Bertrand" alias - was not allowed in court. We now know that Garrison’s office was infiltrated by those outside of his employ. Files were stolen, phones probably tapped, key records surreptitiously given to the defense team. Ultimately, the process wore down all the participants, and Shaw was acquitted. Some jurors felt that though there was seemingly a conspiracy in the assassination, Shaw’s involvement in it was not proven to their satisfaction.

"Had Garrison had some of the subsequent information of Shaw’s involvement in the Permindex Corporation or any of the recently released documentation of his association with covert activities of the CIA, the verdict may have been otherwise..."

Jim Garrison questioned the government's intelligence operations in open court. Against all odds, he was questioning officials and battling a hostile press. Walt Brown and Jan Stevens: "For all his contemporaneous pronouncements and mistakes, [Garrison] was the only man who ever took on the conspiracy in the courtroom. He started a process that brought forth some new information we now know to be true, and leads that are still being looked into by JFK researchers."

As you read through this portion of testimony you will feel the argumentative, quarrelsome atmosphere of that Lousiana court room. This isn't a script for today's Law and Order television series: You will read a soft-spoken, mild-mannered Abraham Zapruder facing an inoperative witness microphone; attorneys throwing out more objections than Robert Shapiro, and an overall hostile environment.

Here is the entire session of Abraham Zapruder's testimony, which was interrupted by the testimony of Robert West. The entire day's session is presented un-cut. It is doubtful we'll ever read any future sworn testimony on this - the "murder case of the century."

-Clint Bradford, September 1999

Comments


Proceedings in Open Court on February 13, 1969
Witnesses: Abraham Zapruder; Robert West

1            AFTERNOON SESSION

1          THE COURT:

2                      Is the State and the Defense ready?

3          MR. ALCOCK:

4                      We are ready, Your Honor.

5          THE COURT:

6                      You may proceed.

10             ...oOo...

11             ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER,

12        after first being duly sworn, was examined and

13            testified on his oath as follows:

14        THE COURT:

15                    The spelling of the witness’ name is

16                    Abraham Zapruder, Z-A-P-R-U-D-E-R,

17                    is that correct?

18        THE WITNESS:

19                    Z-A-P-R-U-D-E-R, correct.

20        THE COURT:

21                    Very well, you may proceed.

22            DIRECT EXAMINATION

23        BY MR. OSER:

24        Q            State your name for the record please?

25        A            Abraham Zapruder.

Page 3

1          Q            Where do you live, Mr. Zapruder?

2          A            3909 Marquette, Dallas, Texas.

3          Q            Mr. Zapruder, what is your occupation?

4          A            I manufacture ladies’ dresses.

5          THE COURT:

6                      I can’t hear you.

7          THE WITNESS:

8                      I manufacture ladies’ dresses.

9          MR. OSER:

10                    I don’t believe it is coming over that

11                    mike at all.

12        THE COURT:

13                    I think the engineer is here.  See if

14                    someone can fix this microphone.

15                    Say, “one, two, three, four,” and

16                    see if the man in the back row can

17                    hear you.

18        THE WITNESS:

19                    One, two, three, four.

20        THE COURT:

21                    Can you speak a little louder?

22        THE WITNESS:

23                    Yes, I can.

24        THE COURT:

25                    Try one more time.  Let’s go.

Page 4

1          BY MR. OSER:

2          Q            Mr. Zapruder, during November, 1963, what was

3                      your occupation?

4          A            I can hardly hear you now.

5          Q            During November of 1963, what was your

6                      occupation?

7          A            The same.

8          Q            Where is your business located in Dallas?

9          A            501 Elm Street.

10        Q            Does the business location have a name to the

11                    building?

12        A            Yes, it is the Daltex Building.

13        Q            I direct your attention to the date of

14                    November 22, 1963, and ask you where you

15                    were at approximately 12:15 p.m. on that

16                    date?

17        A            12:15 p.m. I was looking for a place where

18                    to stand so I would be able to take

19                    pictures of the arrival of the President.

20        Q            Was anybody with you at this time?

21        A            Yes, one of my secretaries.

22        Q            Did you find such a location?

23        A            After three attempts, yes.

24        Q            What location did you decide upon?

25        A            There was a concrete abutment about 4 feet

Page 5

1                      tall and that’s where I decided to stay.

2          MR. OSER:

3                      What is the next exhibit number?

3          THE MINUTE CLERK:

4                      Thirty-three.

5          BY MR. OSER:

6          Q            Mr. Zapruder, I show you what the State has

8                      marked for the purpose of identification

9                      as S-33, and ask you if you have ever

10                    seen this exhibit before?

11        A            You mean this picture?

12        Q            Yes, sir.

13        A            Yes.

14        Q            Do you recognize what is depicted in that

15                    photograph, sir?

16        A            Are you referring to my --

17        THE COURT:

18                    You are not going to have a private

19                    conversation.  Everything is

20                    supposed to go into the record, so

21                    speak into the microphone loud and

22                    clear.

23        THE WITNESS:

24                    What is the question?

25        BY MR. OSER:

Page 6

1          Q            Do you recognize anything depicted in that

2                      photograph, sir?

3          A            Yes.

4          Q            What do you recognize?

5          A            I recognize myself standing there with my

6                      secretary on the aforementioned 4 foot

7                      concrete abutment.

8          Q            Would you circle for me the location with this

9                      pen on the photograph where you say you

10                    are depicted?

11        A            Okay.

12        Q            Mr. Zapruder, while you were standing on this

13                    concrete abutment did you do anything in

14                    particular in regard to what you were

15                    waiting to see and hear?

16        A            Did I do anything?

17        Q            Yes, sir, did you have anything with you and

18                    did you do anything?

19        A            I had a camera with me.

20        Q            What type of camera did you have?

21        A            A Bell & Howell motion picture camera,

22                    8 millimeter, with a zoom lens.

23        Q            Can you tell us what was the color?

24        A            It was loaded with color film.

25        Q            What was the color of the camera itself?

Page 7

1          A            I believe it was black.

2          Q            Do you know what type of lens you had in this

3                      camera?

4          A            I’m not sure, but I believe it was 2.8.

5          Q            Which I believe you said is commonly known as

6                      a zoom lens?

7          A            Yes.

8          MR. DYMOND:

9                      I object, he is leading the witness.

10        THE COURT:

11                    Don’t lead the witness.

12        MR. OSER:

13                    He already testified to that.

14        THE COURT:

15                    You can’t lead him even though he has

16                    said it.

17        MR. OSER:

18                    At this time the State wishes to use one

19                    of its other exhibits.

20        MR. DYMOND:

21                    We object to it being submitted to the

22                    Jury until it is submitted in

23                    evidence.

24        THE COURT:

25                    Take the Jury into their room.

Page 8

1            (WHEREUPON, the Jury retired to

2          the Jury Room.)

3          THE COURT:

4                      Now, Mr. Oser, the photograph which you

5                      have numbered S-33 for identifica-

6                      tion purposes, I understand you are

7                      going to make an offer of that

8                      photograph to be received in

9                      evidence, and if it is received

10                    then you wish to present an

11                    enlargement, is that correct?

12        MR. OSER:

13                    No, Your Honor, other exhibits.

14        THE COURT:

15                    A separate exhibit?

16        MR. OSER:

17                    Yes, Your Honor, separate from Exhibit

18                    S-33 for identification.

19        THE COURT:

20                    You may show us the exhibit and we will

21                    see what it is.

22        MR. DYMOND:

23                    If the Court please, at this time we

24                    object to all this testimony

25                    concerning Dealey Plaza on the

Page 9

1                      ground of relevancy.  Your Honor has

2                      ruled many, many times that there is

3                      no connection between the happenings

4                      at Dealey Plaza and this case.  The

5                      only overt act alleged by the State

6                      in connection with happenings at

7                      Dallas at that time was the alleged

8                      taking by Lee Harvey Oswald of the

9                      gun from his home to the School Book

10                    Depository.  I refer Your Honor to

11                    RS15:441, which gives a codal

12                    definition of relevant evidence and

13                    reads as follows:

14                                “Relevant evidence is that

15                                tending to show the commission of

16                                the offense and the intent or

17                                tending to negative the commission

18                                of the offense and the intent.  The

19                                facts necessary to be known to

20                                explain a relevant fact or which

21                                support and inference raised by

22                                such a fact are admissible.”

23                    It is our contention that none

24                    of this evidence comes within that

25                    codal definition of relevant

Page 10

1                      evidence.  It is on that basis that

2                      we object.

3          MR. ALCOCK:

4                      I think, Your Honor, we have argued this

5                      at length on prior occasions, but I

6                      think the words Mr. Dymond noted

7                      towards the end of his argument are

8                      important, that is, “The facts

9                      necessary to be known to explain a

10                    relevant fact or which support an

11                    inference raised by such a fact are

12                    admissible.”

13                    We have in the record of this

14                    case an alleged discussion

15                    participated in by the Defendant,

16                    Lee Oswald and David Ferrie relative

17                    to the assassination of the President

18                    of the United States.  We have a

19                    discussion of triangulation of

20                    crossfire, the use of rifles in the

21                    assassination attempt, or in the

22                    discussion itself, and certainly

23                    this evidence the State submits,

24                    will be connected up.  The State

25                    also suggests it is highly

Page 11

1                      corroborative of this conspiratorial

2                      meeting and for this reason the

3                      State submits it is relevant to the

4                      facts already stated in evidence --

5          MR. DYMOND:

6                      Your Honor, all the things Mr. Alcock

7                      outlined were alleged and have been

8                      before the Court for approximately

9                      two years, and were the basis for

10                    all Your Honor’s rulings up till

11                    now, that there was no connection

12                    between what happened, so the State

13                    argued, and now we have here a

14                    complete reversal of the position.

15        MR. ALCOCK:

16                    The State has never reversed its

17                    position.  The State’s position was

18                    that it could, if it wanted to,

19                    overprove its case.  The State

20                    admits, and this Court has acknow-

21                    ledged on numerous occasions, the

22                    State does not have to prove, as a

23                    matter of law, the President was

24                    killed as a result of this alleged

25                    conspiratorial meeting.  However,

Page 12

1                      the State may call evidence which

2                      tends to confirm or corroborate that

3                      it was discussed.  It would then be

4                      the duty of the Jury to decide

5                      whether or not to give any weight to

6                      the evidence adduced regarding the

7                      events in Dallas, Texas, relative

8                      to the actual assassination area.

9                      They can consider the President was

10                    shot on that occasion, and if the

11                    State can prove he was shot from

12                    more than one direction the State has

13                    in effect proven a conspiracy, or

14                    more than one person shooting at

15                    him, and these are things the Jury

16                    can infer from this evidence and

17                    they are simply and purely corrobor-

18                    ative of the testimony of

19                    Perry Russo, and in addition to that

20                    the testimony of Mr. Spiesel, who

21                    also mentioned the fact of shooting

22                    the President with rifles.

23        MR. DYMOND:

24        Your Honor, nothing Mr. Alcock says

25                    presents anything that has not been

Page 13

1                      before this Court and used as a

2                      basis for Your Honor’s previous

3                      rulings.  It is Your Honor’s job to

4                      decide what is relevant and what is

5                      not relevant.

6          THE COURT:

7                      I’m aware of that.

8          MR. DYMOND:

9                      It is not up to the Jury.

10        THE COURT:

11                    You have made your arguments to me and

12                    I understand both arguments advanced.

13                    The evidence must be relevant to a

14                    material issue.

15                    I am going to read again

16                    Article 441, which you read, and

17                    also read a little further.

18                    “Relevant evidence is that

19                    tending to show . . . .”

20                    (REPORTER’S NOTE: The quoted passage was

21                    not handed to the Reporter; the reader

22                    is referred to the source.)

23                    There is no question about it,

24                    that the State can overprove its

25                    case if it so desires, and I feel

Page 14

1                      the evidence that is now being

2                      offered as to what occurred in

3                      Dallas is relevant evidence and I

4                      will admit it and therefore I will

5                      overrule your objection.

6          MR. DYMOND:

7                      To which ruling Counsel objects and

8                      reserves a bill of exception, making

9                      the entire testimony of this witness,

10                    the Defense’s objection and the

11                    Court’s ruling and the record up to

12                    this time part of the bill.

13        THE COURT:

14                    Let us see this exhibit.  What is that

15                    and who is that and who are you

16                    going to use to identify it?

17        MR. OSER:

18                    Mr. Zapruder and Mr. Robert West, who is

19                    the County Surveyor for Dallas,

20                    Texas and has been since 1944.

21        THE COURT:

22                    The County Surveyor would be the person

23                    who could say whether or not this

24                    is a true representation of that

25                    area on that date.  What date was

Page 15

1                      is taken?

2          MR. OSER:

3                      I don’t know the date it was taken,

4                      Your Honor, but this represents

5                      Dealey Plaza on November 22.

6          THE COURT:

7                      The materiality depends upon it portraying

8                      the conditions that existed at 12:15

9                      on November 22, 1963.  If it does

10                    then it is relevant, if it does not,

11                    it is not.

12        MR. OSER:

13                    Mr. West can identify it as to the

14                    topographical arrangements and the

15                    buildings and streets and other

16                    things being the same in this picture

17                    as they were on November 22, 1963.

18        THE COURT:

19                    What about the trees, are the trees the

20                    same?

21        MR. OSER:

22                    I think the gentleman could also testify

23                    to that, Your Honor.

24        THE COURT:

25                    What is your next one?  Let us give them

Page 16

1                      a number.  That one will be --

2          MR. OSER:

3                      This is S-34.

4          THE COURT:

5                      The other one will be what?

6          MR. OSER:

7                      S-35, Your Honor.

8          THE COURT:

9                      Tell us what that is supposed to be.

10        MR. OSER:

11                    It is the survey plat made by

12                    Mr. Robert West, drawn by him for

13                    the FBI, for the Federal Government

14                    on May 31, 1964.

15        THE COURT:

16                    What year?

17        MR. OSER:

18                    May 31, 1964 it is certified to, and I

19                    think Mr. West will testify in his

20                    opinion it actually represents what

21                    the land and topographical area was

22                    on November 22, 1963.

23        THE COURT:

24                    What is your next exhibit?

25        MR. OSER:

Page 17

1                      A scale model, which the State marks as

2                      S-36 for the purpose of identifica-

3                      tion, purporting to be representative

4                      of the area known as Dealey Plaza.

5          MR. DYMOND:

6                      I thought we were told that was not a

7                      scale model.

8          MR. OSER:

9                      You are right, not a scale model, a

10                    markup.  The State is not alleging

11                    it is to scale.

12        THE COURT:

13                    Who prepared it?

14        MR. OSER:

15                    It was prepared by CBS.

16        THE COURT:

17                    Who is going to identify it as being a

18                    true picture of the scene on

19                    November 22, 1963?

20        MR. OSER:

21                    Mr. West can identify it, and

22                    Mr. Zapruder can testify this

23                    represents the streets and the

24                    buildings and area known as Dealey

25                    Plaza.

Page 18

1          MR. DYMOND:

2                      Unless it is to scale we are going to

3                      object because it can very easily

4                      present a distorted picture.

5          THE COURT:

6                      They don’t offer it as a scale model.

7                      They offer it to portray the scene

8                      but not a scale model.

9                      How are you going to have

10                    Mr. Zapruder testify as to Exhibits

11                    34, 35 and 36, unless you get them

12                    in evidence?

13        MR. OSER:

14                    I would ask then that we call Mr. West

15                    at this time.

16        THE COURT:

17                    That’s what I would suggest.  You may

18                    step down, Mr. Zapruder.

19        MR. DYMOND:

20                    We object to these exhibits being seen

21                    by the Jury until they are received.

22            (WITNESS EXCUSED.)

23        THE COURT:

24                    I would suggest we call Mr. West and put

25                    him under oath out of the presence

Page 19

1                      of the Jury and go through his

2                      testimony.  If you have no objection

3                      you can do it all over again in the

4                      presence of the Jury.

5             ...oOo...

6             ROBERT WEST,

7          after first being duly sworn, was examined and

8            testified on his oath as follows:

9          THE COURT:

10                    Would you be kind enough to spell your

11                    name?

12        THE WITNESS:

13                    Robert H. West, W-E-S-T.

14        THE COURT:

15                    You may proceed.

16             DIRECT EXAMINATION

17        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

18        Q            What is your occupation, sir?

19        A            I am a land surveyor, the County Surveyor for

20                    Dallas County.

21        Q            Would you briefly tell the Court the nature

22                    of your duties as surveyor for Dallas

23                    County, Dallas, Texas?

24        A            Basically keeping the survey records, the

25                    land survey records of the County, making

Page 20

1                      them available to the public and so

2                      forth.

3          Q            Do your duties include any on-the-scene survey

4                      work?

5          A            In my official capacity as County Surveyor

6                      very, very rarely.  The County Surveyor’s

7                      Office is mainly in the surveying of

8                      public bond domain, of which there is

9                      very little left in Dallas County.

10        Q            Relative to other aspects of your occupation,

11                    do you do on-the-scene survey work?

12        A            Yes, sir.

13        MR. SCIAMBRA:

14                    At this time the State would attempt to

15                    qualify this witness as an expert

16                    surveyor and therefore qualified to

17                    give his expert opinion relative to

18                    the topographical aspects of Dealey

19                    Plaza in Dallas, Texas.

20        THE COURT:

21                    Does the Defense wish to traverse

22                    Mr. West on the proposition of his

23                    being an expert?

24        MR. DYMOND:

25                    Just a few questions.

Page 21

1          BY MR. DYMOND:

2          Q            Mr. West, what is --

3                      MR. SCIAMBRA:

4                      I haven’t questioned him yet.  I haven’t

5                      brought out his qualifications yet.

6          THE COURT:

7                      You may proceed to do so.

8          BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

9          Q            How long have you been County Surveyor for

10                    the County of Dallas, Texas?

11        A            Since 1944.

12        Q            What training have you had, whether in some

13                    institution or whether in an apprentice

14                    type of situation?

15        A            The basic training was with my father who was

16                    County Surveyor from 1904 until 1944, at

17                    which time I assisted him.  I also,

18                    during that period, attended A&M

19                    College and Southern Methodist University

20                    taking civil engineering.

21        Q            At what age did you begin to receive your

22                    training under the tutorship of your

23                    father?

24        A            When I was 12, 13 years old he started taking

25                    me to the field to help him make these

Page 22

1                      land surveys.

2          Q            Have you ever been qualified as an expert

3                      surveyor in any courts?

4          A            Yes, sir.

5          Q            Approximately how many courts have you been

6                      qualified as an expert in?

7          A            All the courts in Dallas County.  The County

8                      Courts, the District Courts and the

9                      Federal Courts.

10        THE COURT:

11                    Mr. Alcock, I would suggest you tender

12                    Mr. West for traverse by the

13                    Defense.

14        MR. ALCOCK:

15                    The State will tender him.

16        BY MR. DYMOND:

17        Q            Mr. West, is there such a thing as a

18                    topographical surveyor?

19        A            One who does nothing but topographical work?

20        Q            Topographical work, yes.

21        A            There are, but I don’t know of any personally.

22        Q            Do all surveyors do topographical work?

23        A            All the land surveyors should be able to do

24                    topographical work.

25        Q            Do you do topographical work, sir?

Page 23

1          A            Yes, sir.

2          Q            Did you graduate in civil engineering?

3          A            No, sir.

4                      MR. DYMOND:

5                      That is all, sir.

6                      THE COURT:

7                      Mr. Dymond, does the Defense wish to put

8                      any witness on the traverse as to the

9                      expertise of the witness Mr. West

10                    being an expert in this field?

11        MR. DYMOND:

12                    No, we don’t wish to do that.

13        THE COURT:

14                    Is the matter submitted?

15        MR. SCIAMBRA:

16                    It is submitted by the State.

17        THE COURT:

18                    I will rule that Mr. West by training,

19                    experience and study is an expert

20                    in this field and can give his

21                    opinion as to the landmarks in

22                    Dallas County, Dallas, Texas on

23                    November 22, 1963.

24        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

25        Q            Did you have occasion during the course of

Page 24

1                      your duties to survey and draw a survey

2                      plat for the Federal Bureau of

3                      Investigation relative to Dealey Plaza?

4          A            Yes, sir.

5          Q            Do you see that survey or reproduction of it

6                      in court today?

7          A            I think it is on the easel over there on the

8                      left.

9          Q            Is this survey drawn to scale, and if so, what

10                    scale?

11        A            Yes, sir.  The scale is noted on the plat.

12                    The large portion of the map is drawn to

13                    the scale of one inch equal to twenty

14                    feet.  The other portion, which has to do

15                    with vertical control --

16        Q            Let me ask you this, Mr. West: Is this a

17                    complete survey of Dealey Plaza?

18        A            No, sir.

19        Q            In what respects is it incomplete?

20        A            It is not complete, it does not show all of

21                    the topographical features within this

22                    particular quadrant of Dealey Plaza.

23        Q            Is there any particular reason why it does

24                    not show this?

25        A            This is what was required by an FBI agent.

Page 25

1                      This is what he instructed me to survey

2                      and to plat.

3          Q            Particularly relative to the location of the

4                      street and what is referred to as a

5                      wooden stockade, and the location of the

6                      other landmarks which are on this plat,

7                      are they in the same location as they

8                      were in on November 23, 1963?

9          A            I cannot testify to the location of the sign

10                    as being in the exact position.

11        Q            Are these signs clearly marked on the plat?

12        A            Yes, sir.

13        Q            Relative to the other aspects of this plat,

14                    can you testify to them?

15        A            All of the aspects on the plat to the best of

16                    my knowledge are the same.

17        Q            As they were on the 22nd of November?

18        A            Right.

19        Q            When was this plat made, if you know?

20        A            I can’t see the date.  It is on the map there.

21        Q            Is there a date on the plat?

22        A            Yes, sir.

23        Q            Would you please step down and walk over to

24                    the plat?

25        A            April 31, 1964.

Page 26

1          Q            Is your name on the plat?

2          A            My name is printed on the map and also my

3                      signature is on the map.

4          Q            Are there any seals on the plat?

5          A            There is a seal of the Public Surveyor’s

6                      Office.

7          Q            Was this seal placed on the plat by you?

8          A            Yes, sir.

9          Q            Mr. West, I direct your attention to what the

10                    State has previously marked as S-34, which

11                    purports to be an aerial photograph, and

12                    I ask you whether or not you can tell

13                    the Court of what this is a photograph?

14                    If you cannot see it plainly you can step

15                    over here.

16        A            I believe I can see it.  It is a photograph of

17                    part of Dealey Plaza at the intersection

18                    of Houston, Elm, Main and Commerce in

19                    Dallas.

20        Q            I request you get up from your witness chair

21                    and inspect this photograph very carefully,

22                    please.  Would you come over here and

23                    inspect it?

24        A            All right.

25        Q            You may return to your seat.  Mr. West, you

Page 27

1                      have inspected what purports to be an

2                      aerial photograph of Dealey Plaza, is

3                      that correct, sir?

4          A            Yes.

5          Q            To the best of your knowledge are the

6                      buildings, streets and various landmarks,

7                      including the trees that are depicted in

8                      this photograph, in the same location and

9                      position as they were in on November 22,

10                    1963?

11        A            Yes, sir.

12        Q            Are the objects which are depicted in this

13                    map, in this photograph, in the same

14                    location as the objects which are

15                    depicted in your plat, as far as it

16                    goes?

17        A            The same relative location of streets,

18                    buildings and so forth.

19        Q            Mr. West, I would ask you to please step down

20                    and inspect what has been previously

21                    marked as S-36.

22        A            All right.

23        Q            Please return to your seat.  Mr. West, you

24                    have inspected what has been marked as

25                    S-36, is that correct, sir?

Page 28

1          A            Yes, sir.

2          Q            Do you recognize this as being any particular

3                      location?

4          A            Well, it is basically the same area as covered

5                      in the photograph.  Commerce, Main, Elm

6                      and Houston Streets, showing the court-

7                      house and the jail and so forth.

8          Q            As a result of your inspection were you able to

9                      determine any errors which might be

10                    represented here as opposed to the actual

11                    scene in Dallas, Texas?

12        A            That covers such a multitude of things I don’t

13                    know that I could answer that question.

14        Q            Are there any major errors?

15        A            I don’t see any major errors.

16        Q            Are there any buildings on here which are not

17                    in Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas?

18        A            No.

19        Q            Are there any streets on here which are not

20                    in Dealey Plaza in Dallas, Texas?

21        A            No, sir.

22        Q            Where is your office located in Dallas,

23                    Mr. West?

24        A            At the date of this survey it was located on

25                    the first floor of the northwest corner

Page 29

1                      of the old courthouse at the corner of

2                      Main and Houston.

3          Q            Is the old courthouse depicted in this aerial

4                      photograph?

5          A            Yes, sir, it is in the lower right-hand corner.

6          Q            Were you present in Dealey Plaza at approxi-

7                      mately noon on November 22, 1963?

8          A            Yes, sir.

9          Q            Therefore in your expert opinion the two

10                    exhibits, S-30 and S-36, do they fairly

11                    represent the area as it was on that date,

12                    is that right?

13        A            Right.

14        Q            More specifically, the markup which the State

15                    does allege is not to scale, and you have

16                    noticed there are some minor mistakes, is

17                    that right?

18        A            Right.

19        Q            But there are no buildings, streets or major

20                    obstacles which are located out of

21                    position, is that right?

22        A            Right.

23        THE COURT:

24                    Mr. Dymond, Mr. Wegmann and Mr. Wegmann,

25                    do you wish to traverse on these

Page 30

1                      exhibits?

2          MR. DYMOND:

3                      Yes, I do.

4          THE COURT:

5                      You may do it.

6          BY MR. DYMOND:

7          Q            Mr. West, I have particular reference to what

8                      has been termed a markup, that is this

9                      model here before me.  You stated on

10                    Direct Examination there are some minor

11                    mistakes on it.  Would you mind coming

12                    down here and point them out to us,

13                    these minor mistakes?

14        A            Basically what I intended to say was that the

15                    markup covers such a large area that it

16                    would be impossible for me to check out

17                    every minute detail as to scale, location

18                    of trees, location of traffic strips,

19                    et cetera, that are on this model.  I

20                    couldn’t say whether they are in the

21                    correct position or not.

22        Q            Mr. West, the markup doesn’t purport to be a

23                    scale markup, so errors as to scale would

24                    not be relevant here.  Can you point out

25                    other errors, other than scale errors.

Page 31

1                      that might exist?

2          A            I would have to examine it again to pick out

3                      any big errors such as that.

4          Q            You are free to examine it if you wish to,

5                      Mr. West.

6          A            Basically the model doesn’t indicate the

7                      concrete wall or fence along the west

8                      side of the area that leads across

9                      Houston Street from the Criminal Court and

10                    jail building between the lagoon and Elm

11                    Street.

12        THE COURT:

13                    The Court Reporter has to get this down,

14                    so will you speak louder, please.

15        THE WITNESS:

16                    (Continuing) There is a concrete wall

17                    that runs along the west side of the

18                    lagoon, west of Houston Street.

19                    It is terribly difficult here to say

20                    what is missing in a model of this

21                    type.  For example, the storm sewer

22                    inlets are not shown on Elm, Main or

23                    Commerce.

24        THE COURT:

25                    I cannot hear you.

Page 32

1          THE WITNESS:

2                      (Continuing) The storm sewers are not

3                      shown on Main, Elm or Commerce.  The

4                      highway sign shown here, I couldn’t

5                      say it is in the correct position.

6                      Basically that’s about all.

7          BY MR. DYMOND:

8          Q            You may return to the stand.  Mr. West, would

9                      you be able to testify as to whether this

10                    markup contains the same number of trees

11                    in the same locations and of approximately

12                    the same relative size as those that were

13                    in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963?

14        A            No, sir.

15        Q            You could not?

16        A            No, sir.

17        Q            Mr. West, I refer to a building here, and ask

18                    you what building this represents?

19        A            This is the Criminal Courts Building.

20        Q            Where would the Records Building be in relation

21                    to this Criminal Courts Building?

22        A            Immediately behind it or east of it.

23        Q            Back this way?

24        A            Right.

25        Q            When was the Records Building built?

Page 33

1          A            To the best of my knowledge along in the 1920's.

2          Q            When was the new Criminal Courts Building built?

3          A            The late ‘40's.

4          Q            Is it not a fact that facing this markup over

5                      in this left area are the railroad tracks,

6                      that there is a railroad observation

7                      tower with a big plate glass window in the

8                      front of it permitting open view into what

9                      has been termed the grassy knoll area?

10        A            There is a tower and it has, I am sure, a view

11                    of the railroad.  I have never been up

12                    there so I couldn’t say what the view is.

13        THE COURT:

14                    Could you find in the aerial photograph

15                    that of which you are speaking?

16        MR. DYMOND:

17                    In order to enlighten you as to what I

18                    am speaking of, Mr. West, I am

19                    pointing my finger to the building

20                    to which I have reference on

21                    State-34.

22        THE COURT:

23                    Why don’t you step down, sir.  I have a

24                    magnifying glass here if you want

25                    it.

Page 34

1          MR. DYMOND:

2                      I don’t believe so, Your Honor.

3          THE WITNESS:

4                      Yes, I can see it.

5          BY MR. DYMOND:

6          Q            Such a  building does exist and did exist on

7                      November 22, 1963?

8          A            Yes.

9          Q            Is that building represented on this markup at

10                    all?

11        A            I don’t believe so.

12        Q            Now, with respect to the large exhibit over

13                    here, Mr. West, which has been marked for

14                    identification as State-35, is such a

15                    building represented on this survey?

16        A            No, sir.

17        Q            Is there anything on this survey which would

18                    indicate the number and the size and the

19                    location of trees in this area?

20        A            There are several trees shown.  The size, no.

21                    You mean the diameter of the trunk of

22                    the tree?

23        Q            And the height of the trunk of the tree.

24        A            We didn’t attempt to show the diameter or

25                    height of any trees.

Page 35

1          Q            Would you call this, sir, a topographical

2                      survey or not?

3          A            Within its limits.

4          Q            Within what limits?

5          A            Within the limits that were indicated to me by

6                      the FBI, that this was the information

7                      that they wanted to be shown on this map.

8                      Within those limits it is a topographical

9                      map.

10        Q            Do those limits coincide with your definition

11                    of a topographical survey?

12        A            Within those limits, yes, sir.

13        Q            I am talking about your general definition and

14                    knowledge of the term ‘topographical

15                    survey’.

16        A            For example, the information shown at Houston

17                    Street beginning at Main and running

18                    northerly along Elm Street and beginning

19                    at Houston and running westerly to the

20                    triple underpass, that in my opinion is a

21                    true topographical map showing all the

22                    physical features of those particular

23                    streets.

24        Q            Do you know when the photograph was taken,

25                    Mr. West?

Page 36

1          A            No, sir.

2          Q            Do you know whether or not that photograph

3                      reflects the same number of trees in the

4                      same location and the same height as

5                      existed in that location on November 22,

6                      1963?

7          A            No, sir.

8          MR. DYMOND:

9                      That’s all, sir.

10        THE COURT:

11                    For the record, Mr. Sciambra, can we have

12                    the date when this was taken?  Does

13                    it appear on the reverse thereof

14                    when it was taken?

15        MR. SCIAMBRA:

16                    No, Your Honor.

17        THE COURT:

18                    To the best you know, from your experience

19                    living in Dallas, Texas, having helped

20                    your father since you were 12 years

21                    old and being familiar with the area,

22                    as an expert would you say the aerial

23                    photograph fairly and accurately

24                    represents the scene as it existed

25                    on November 22, 1963?

Page 37

1          THE WITNESS:

2                      As best as can be shown by a photograph,

3                      yes, sir.

4          THE COURT:

5                      The answer is “yes”?

6          THE WITNESS:

7                      Yes.

8          THE COURT:

9                      You prepared a plat of the survey?

10        THE WITNESS:

11                    Yes.

12        THE COURT:

13                    Let us get to the markup.  Does it fairly

14                    represent the scene, not to scale

15                    but the general appearance,

16                    particularly of the streets and the

17                    Texas Schoolbook Depository Building;

18                    does it fairly show the scene as it

19                    existed on November 22, 1963, to the

20                    best of your knowledge?

21        THE WITNESS:

22                    I think it does.

23        THE COURT:

24                    I am going to admit these three exhibits

25                    into evidence.

Page 38

1          MR. DYMOND:

2                      Will we have an opportunity to object?

3          THE COURT:

4                      You will have an opportunity to object.

5                      Let us bring the Jury in and leave the

6                      exhibits where they are and go

7                      through it all over again in

8                      front of the Jury.

9            (WHEREUPON, the Jury returned to the

10            courtroom.)

11        THE COURT:

12                    You may start from the beginning.

13             ...oOo...

14             ROBERT WEST,

15        having been previously sworn, testified further on

16        his oath as follows:

17        MR. DYMOND:

18                    If the Court please, now that the Jury

19                    has returned, we would like to

20                    object and reserve our bill, to the

21                    testimony of Mr. Abraham Zapruder

22                    on the grounds of relevancy of the

23                    issues in this case, and making his

24                    entire testimony, the objection, the

25                    ruling of the Court and all other

Page 39

1                      testimony up to this time part of

2                      the bill.

3          THE COURT:

4                      You may proceed.

5             DIRECT EXAMINATION

6          BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

7          Q            Would you please state your full name?

8          A            Robert H. West.

9          Q            Where do you reside?

10        A            9209 Pennywool (?) Street, Dallas, Texas.

11        Q            What is your occupation?

12        A            I’m a land surveyor.

13        Q            Do you have any particular title?

14        A            I am County Surveyor of Dallas County, Texas.

15        Q            How long have you held that office?

16        A            Since 1944.

17        Q            Would you in a couple of sentences please

18                    explain to the Gentlemen of the Jury very

19                    briefly the nature of your work as

20                    County Surveyor and also the nature of

21                    your work as a surveyor?

22        A            The nature of my work as a County Surveyor is

23                    the maintenance and preservation of

24                    original survey records of Dallas County,

25                    making them available to the public and

Page 40

                        so forth.  My duties as a land surveyor

2                      have to do with the surveying of land,

3                      subdivisions, topographical maps, maps of

4                      collisions for insurance companies.  That

5                      about covers it.

6          MR. SCIAMBRA:

7                      May it please the Court, at this time the

8                      State will attempt to qualify

9                      Mr. West as an expert surveyor and

10                    further qualified to give his opinion

11                    as to the topographical aspects of

12                    Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas.

13        MR. DYMOND:

14                    We would like to object to the testimony

15                    of Mr. West on the ground of

16                    relevancy for the same reasons as

17                    heretofore stated.

18        THE COURT:

19                    The ruling as I ruled with regard to

20                    Mr. Zapruder will apply to Mr. West.

21        MR. DYMOND:

22                    Same bill.

23        THE COURT:

24                                Proceed.

25        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

Page 41

1          Q            Have you had any particular training in the

2                      field of surveying?

3          A            I received my basic surveying training from my

4                      father who was County Surveyor from 1904

5                      until 1944.  Other than that I received

6                      my schooling at A & M College and Southern

7                      Methodist University.

8          Q            Have you had any education and experience of

9                      civil engineering?

10        A            Not much, except what I run into in the

11                    practice of land surveying.

12        Q            How old were you when you began to receive your

13                    training from your father?

14        A            Approximately 12 to 14.  Well, since I got big

15                    enough.

16        Q            Was that training continuous until your father

17                    left office in 1944?

18        A            Except for time out for schooling.

19        Q            Mr. West, have you ever been qualified as an

20                    expert surveyor in any courts?

21        A            Yes, sir.

22        Q            Have you ever been qualified in Federal Courts?

23        A            Yes, sir.

24        Q            Do you know on how many occasions in Federal

25                    Courts?

Page 42

1          A            I would say approximately a half a dozen times.

2          Q            Have you ever been qualified by any District

3                      or Municipal Courts?

4          A            The County Court and District Courts, yes, sir.

5          Q            On approximately how many occasions, if you

6                      know?

7          A            Thirty to forty.

8          Q            How long have you been County Surveyor for

9                      Dallas County, Dallas, Texas?

10        A            Since 1944.

11        THE COURT:

12                    Do you wish to tender the witness for

13                    traverse?

14        MR. SCIAMBRA:

15                    The State tenders the witness.

16        BY MR. DYMOND:

17        Q            Are you a graduate civil engineer, Mr. West?

18        A            No, sir.

19        THE COURT:

20                    Does the Defense wish to present any

21                    evidence by witnesses or otherwise

22                    on traverse of the qualifications

23                    of Mr. West?

24        MR. DYMOND:

25                    We don’t, Your Honor.

Page 43

1          THE COURT:

2                      Is the matter submitted?

3          MR. SCIAMBRA:

4                      Submitted by the State, Your Honor.

5          THE COURT:

6                      Considering the training, experience and

7                      education of the witness, the Court

8                      rules he is qualified as an expert

9                      in this particular field and can give

10                    his opinion not only as a land

11                    surveyor but also as an official of

12                    Dallas County of the physical aspects

13                    of Dallas on November 22, 1963.  You

14                    may proceed.

15        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

16        Q            I direct your attention to what has been

17                    previously marked for identification as

18                    State Exhibit 35, which purports to be a

19                    plat, and ask you whether or not you

20                    recognize this?

21        A            Yes, sir.

22        Q            For what purpose was this plat originally

23                    drawn?

24        A            This was made at the request of the FBI agent

25                    for the Warren Commission.

Page 44

1          Q            Did you personally draw this?

2          A            It was personally drawn -- Well, it was drawn

3                      under my personal supervision.

4          Q            Did you personally supervise the surveying of

5                      everything that led up to the drawing of

6                      this plat?

7          A            Yes, sir, I was present at all times during the

8                      office work and field work.

9          Q            In connection with the drawing of this plat

10                    were any photographs taken to aid you?

11        A            Yes, sir.

12        Q            Mr. West, is this plat a complete representa-

13                    tion of Dealey Plaza?

14        A            No, sir.

15        Q            In what respects is it not complete?

16        A            It doesn’t show all of the topographical

17                    features of that particular part of

18                    Dealey Plaza that lies northwest of Main

19                    Street.

20        Q            Does it show all of the curves and contours

21                    in Dealey Plaza?

22        A            Not of the ground, but all the streets, it

23                    shows all of the curves and contours.

24        Q            Directing your attention specifically to the

25                    wooden stockade, does this plan indicate

Page 45

1                      the elevation of this stockade?

2          A            No, sir.

3          Q            Are there any reasons why this plat is an

4                      incomplete drawing?

5          A            This is what the FBI agent instructed me to

6                      show on this plat, these features.

7          Q            Mr. West, I direct your attention -- no, I will

8                      ask you something prior to that.  Would you

9                      please step down from the witness stand and

10                    come over here?

11        A            Yes.

12        MR. SCIAMBRA:

13                    Your Honor, for the sake of convenience,

14                    provided I speak in a loud voice and

15                    provided Mr. West speaks in a loud

16                    voice, can I ask him questions from

17                    here?

18        THE COURT:

19                    Yes, but speak up.

20        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

21        Q            I notice in the center lane of that which you

22                    have depicted as Elm Street there are

23                    numerals close to small dots.  Can you

24                    please tell the Gentlemen of the Jury what

25                    those numbers represent and what the dots

Page 46

1                      represent?

2          A            The number represents the frame number of the

3                      Zapruder film.  The dot represents the

4                      location of President Kennedy in the

5                      limousine when the particular frame was

6                      shot.

7                      MR. DYMOND:

8                      We object to that unless this gentlemen

9                      can testify to that of his own

10                    knowledge, Your Honor.  Unless he

11                    measured where the President was each

12                    time it would be based purely on

13                    hearsay.

14        MR. SCIAMBRA:

15                    I am asking the question.

16        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

17        Q            Why did you place the dot in the frame number

18                    in a particular location which is shown

19                    on this plat?

20        A            On the instructions of the FBI agent.

21        MR. DYMOND:

22                    We object to it and ask the Jury be

23                    instructed to disregard it.

24        THE COURT:

25                    I so instruct the Jury.  Disregard the

Page 47

1                      last remark.

2                      May I ask the witness one

3                      question?  Does your signature appear

4                      on this scale model?

5          THE WITNESS:

6                      Yes, sir, over in the lower left-hand

7                      corner.

8          BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

9          Q            Is there also a seal upon this drawing?

10        A            Yes, sir, the Registered Public Surveyor’s

11                    seal.

12        Q            Is this your seal?

13        A            Yes, sir.

14        Q            Did you place this seal there?

15        A            Yes, sir.

16        Q            Is this plat drawn to scale, Mr. West?

17        A            Yes, sir.

18        Q            What is the scale of this plat?

19        A            One inch equal to ten feet on the large portion

20                    and the right-hand part of the map

21                    horizontal control part, the upper

22                    left-hand part of this vertical control,

23                    is one inch to twenty feet.  They are

24                    noted on the plat.

25        Q            Mr. West, were you present in Dealey Plaza on

Page 48

1                      a date whenever a reconstruction of the

2                      assassination of President Kennedy was

3                      conducted?

4          A            Yes, sir.

5          Q            Were any Federal agents present at this time?

6          A            Yes, sir.

7          Q            Do you know from what bureau or agency these

8                      men were?

9          MR. DYMOND:

10                    We object on the grounds that this is

11                    completely irrelevant.  A reconstruc-

12                    tion of what supposedly went on has

13                    no place in this case.

14        THE COURT:

15                    I sustain that objection.

16        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

17        Q            I direct your attention to what has been

18                    previously marked by the State as S-34,

19                    and I ask you whether or not you

20                    recognize the scene depicted in this

21                    photograph?

22        A            Yes, sir.  That is a portion of Dealey Plaza

23                    at Houston, Main, Elm and Commerce Streets

24                    in Dallas.

25        Q            In this photograph there is a building which

Page 49

1                      is marked “Texas School Book Depository.”

2                      Is this in fact the Texas School Book

3                      Depository?

4          A            Yes, sir.

5          Q            There is also a building marked the Daltex

6                      Building.  Is this the Daltex Building?

7          A            Yes.

8          Q            There is also a building marked the Records

9                      Building.  Is this in fact the Records

10                    Building?

11        A            I can’t see from here which is marked as the

12                    Records Building.

13        Q            Well, step down and come over to the photograph.

14        A            This part as shown as the Records Building is

15                    the back of the Criminal Courts Building,

16                    but they are all hooked together with

17                    hallways that run from one to the other.

18        Q            I direct your attention to what has been

19                    previously marked for identification by

20                    the State as S-36, which purports to be a

21                    markup of Dealey Plaza, and ask you

22                    whether or not you recognize this?

23        A            Yes, sir.

24        MR. SCIAMBRA:

25                    Your Honor, I would make a statement to

Page 50

1                      The Court and the jury that at this

2                      time this does not purport to be

3                      drawn to scale, or built to scale.

4          BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

5          Q            Have you inspected, or would you please at

6                      this time step forward and inspect this

7                      markup.  Please speak very loudly so

8                      everyone can hear you.  Is this an accurate

9                      model or markup of Dealey Plaza or are

10                    there things which are not contained in

11                    this markup?

12        A            There are things that are not contained in this

13                    markup.  All of the physical features are

14                    not shown.

15        Q            Will you please point out those features which

16                    are not shown?

17        A            One, for example, is the concrete fence which

18                    runs along the west side of the lagoon

19                    west of Houston Street between Main and

20                    Elm.

21        Q            Relative to the buildings and the locations of

22                    the streets, are they fairly accurately

23                    represented by this markup?

24        A            I think they are fairly accurate, yes, sir.

25        Q            Are there any buildings in Dealey Plaza in the

Page 51

1                      area depicted here which are not located

2                      in this markup?

3          A            Not to my knowledge.

4          Q            You may return to the witness chair.  Now,

5                      Mr. West, were you present in Dealey

6                      Plaza on November 22, 1963, sir?

7          A            Yes, sir.

8          Q            Where were you located?  At approximately what

9                      time were you in Dealey Plaza?

10        A            I don’t remember the exact time of the day.

11                    It was approximately 15 minutes before

12                    the motorcade came down.

13        Q            Mr. West, I’m going to give you a small flag

14                    which has your name on it, and which also

15                    has a pin in it, and I would ask you to

16                    please go to what you previously identi-

17                    fied as being your certified plat and

18                    stick this in the location where you were

19                    approximately 30 minutes before the

20                    motorcade passed on November 22, 1963.

21        A            (The witness complies.)

22        Q            Now, Mr. West, would you please explain to the

23                    Gentlemen of the Jury, and the Court,

24                    verbally what location this is?

25        A            That would be the southeast corner of the

Page 52

1                      intersection of Main and Houston Streets.

2          Q            In relation to the aerial photograph, and in

3                      relation to where your office was at that

4                      time, or in relation to where you were,

5                      where was your office at that time?

6          A            It was in the old courthouse approximately

7                      40 or 50 feet south of where I was

8                      standing.

9          Q            Did you see the presidential motorcade on that

10                    day, sir?

11        A            Yes, sir.

12        Q            Before I proceed I’m going to also give you a

13                    small emblem which represents a man, and

14                    ask you to proceed to the markup and paste

15                    yourself on the markup in accordance with

16                    where you were on that date.

17        A            (The witness complies.)

18        Q            Mr. West, what was the location of the

19                    presidential limousine at the time your

20                    first saw it on November 22, sir?

21        A            It was going west on Main Street at approxi-

22                    mately Record Street, which is the first

23                    street east of Houston.

24        Q            Did you observe the presidential limousine

25                    as it approached Houston Street?

Page 53

1          A            Yes, sir.

2          Q            In which direction did the presidential

3                      limousine proceed upon reaching Houston

4                      Street?

5          A            It turned to the right, or to the north.

6          Q            At what time did you lose sight of the

7                      presidential limousine, if in fact you

8                      ever lost sight of it?

9          A            Shortly after it turned to the left, or back

10                    west on Elm Street.

11        Q            When did you again regain visual observation

12                    of the presidential limousine?

13        A            Before it went under the underpass.

14        Q            Would you please step up and indicate the

15                    location of the underpass of which you are

16                    speaking on the aerial photograph and then

17                    also on the plat which you have drawn?

18        A            (The witness complies.)

19        Q            Now would you indicate this on the markup,

20                    sir?

21        A            (The witness complies.)

22        Q            Now, Mr. West, did you see or hear anything

23                    unusual as the presidential motorcade

24                    proceeded through Dealey Plaza on

25                    November 22?

Page 54

1          A            Some time after it turned on Elm Street I

2                      heard what sounded to me at that time as

3                      what I thought was backfiring, a motor-

4                      cycle.

5          Q            How many of these backfires did you hear?

6          A            Four.

7          Q            Did you at any time during this period determine

8                      them to be anything other than backfires?

9          MR. DYMOND:

10                    Object, unless of his own knowledge he did.

11        MR. SCIAMBRA:

12                    That is what I asked him.

13        THE COURT:

14                    From your own knowledge did you make any

15                    determination?

16        THE WITNESS:

17                    I made no examination, no, sir.

18        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

19        Q            Did you recognize any of the noise which you

20                    have described as anything other than a

21                    backfire?

22        MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:

23                    Objection, he already testified it was

24                    backfire.  Now he is trying to

25                    change his witness testimony.

Page 55

1          MR. SCIAMBRA:

2                      I am asking him if he ever determined it

3                      to be anything else.

4          THE COURT:

5                      Put the question differently, would you

6                      please?

7          BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

8          Q            Mr. West, did you hear any unusual noise?

9          A            Yes, sir.

10        Q            On how many occasions did you hear this noise?

11        A            Four.

12        Q            Did it sound the same on each occasion?

13        A            Yes, sir.

14        Q            What did you think this noise was on the first

15                    occasion?

16        MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:

17                    Objection, he has already said it sounded

18                    the same on each occasion.

19        THE COURT:

20                    I will permit the question.  You may ask

21                    the same on each occasion.

22        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

23        Q            What did it sound like on the first occasion?

24        A            A motorcycle backfired.

25        Q            What did it sound like on the second occasion?

Page 56

1          A            A rifle fired.

2          Q            It sounded to you like rifle fire --

3          THE COURT:

4                      You needn’t repeat his testimony.

5          BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

6          Q            What did it sound like to you on the third

7                      occasion?

8          A            It appeared to me it was rifle fire after the

9                      second.  The first and the second my

10                    response was it was motorcycle backfire.

11        Q            What was your response to the third sound that

12                    you heard?

13        A            Rifle fire.

14        Q            Were these loud sounds?

15        A            Yes, sir.

16        Q            Were you able to determine at any time during

17                    the course of these the location or the

18                    area from which these sounds were

19                    emanating?

20        MR. DYMOND:

21                    Objection on the ground it calls for an

22                    opinion.

23        MR. SCIAMBRA:

24                    This is within his knowledge.

25        THE COURT:

Page 57

1                      You don’t have to argue.  If you know of

2                      your own personal knowledge you can

3                      answer the question.

4          THE WITNESS:

5                      The sound came from the northwest quadrant

6                      of Dealey Plaza.

7          BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

8          Q            Will you please step down from the witness

9                      chair and proceed to your plat and indicate

10                    to the Gentlemen of the Jury what the

11                    northwest quadrant of Dealey Plaza is.

12        A            This entire area north and west of Elm Street.

13        Q            Were you able, or can you at this time tell the

14                    Gentlemen of the Jury what interval of

15                    time there appeared to be between the first

16                    and the second reports which you heard?

17        A            No, sir.

18        Q            Can you tell us the interval between the second

19                    and the third?

20        A            No, sir.

21        Q            The third and fourth?

22        A            No, sir.

23        Q            Mr. West, you will notice on what has been

24                    previously marked as S-34, which is the

25                    aerial photograph, a line of dots.  I will

Page 58

1                      ask you whether or not this is the route

2                      taken --

3          MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:

4                      Objection on the grounds it is leading.

5          THE COURT:

6                      Rephrase your question, please.

7          BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

8          Q            Would you indicate to the Gentlemen of the Jury

9                      by stepping to this aerial photograph the

10                    route taken by the presidential limousine?

11        A            The limousine was going west on Elm, north

12                    on Houston and back west -- pardon me,

13                    west on main, north on Houston and back

14                    west on Elm.

15        Q            Mr. West, is it possible for you to tell the

16                    Gentlemen of the Jury the approximate span

17                    of time that elapsed between the first

18                    report which you heard and the last report

19                    which you heard?

20        A            No, sir.

21        Q            Mr. West, when was the last time you observed

22                    the presidential limousine?

23        A            Somewhere shortly before it went under the

24                    triple underpass.

25        Q            Were there many persons in Dealey Plaza on

Page 59

1                      November 22?

2          A            Yes, sir.

3          Q            As the presidential limousine proceeded out of

4                      sight what, if anything, did the persons

5                      in Dealey Plaza do?

6          A            There seemed to be a commotion.

7          Q            Was there any particular reaction --

8          MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:

9                      Objection, that is calling for an opinion.

10        THE COURT:

11                    Allow him to tell what he saw without

12                    leading him.  He can explain what he

13                    saw without leading.

14        THE WITNESS:

15                    Are you referring to the individual

16                    persons?

17        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

18        Q            No, the crowd in general, sir.  Let me rephrase

19                    the question.

20        MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:

21                    I suggest he be allowed to answer the

22                    question.

23        THE COURT:

24                    Tell us in your own words what happened.

25        THE WITNESS:

Page 60

1                      There seemed to be a commotion.

2          BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

3          Q            Did the crowd react in any particular direction

4                      that you saw?

5          MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:

6                      Objection, he’s leading the witness again,

7                      Your Honor.

8          THE COURT:

9                      Tell us what happened without any leading.

10        THE WITNESS:

11                    When I left my position on the corner of

12                    Main and Houston and went across into

13                    Dealey Plaza area, there was quite a

14                    commotion.  A police motorcycle and

15                    several men coming up, what is

16                    indicated on the aerial photograph as

17                    the grassy knoll.  When I got over to

18                    the motorcycle there were several men

19                    up behind the wood stockade fence

20                    along the north edge of the grassy

21                    knoll.

22        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

23        Q            Would you just put the general area from where

24                    you stated you heard the shots come from?

25        MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:

Page 61

1                      Objection to leading.

2          THE COURT:

3                      Rephrase your question.

4          BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

5          Q            In relation to the grassy knoll, from which

6                      area did you hear the shots?

7          A            The grassy knoll is in the same northwest

8                      quadrant as I heard the shots.

9          Q            Would you please step down and indicate to the

10                    Gentlemen of the Jury where the grassy

11                    knoll was located?

12        A            On the aerial photograph it is located along

13                    this area.

14        Q            You stated you saw a motorcycle man get off of

15                    his motorcycle.

16                    MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:

17                    I object.  There has been no such

18                    testimony.

19        THE COURT:

20                    Don’t lead.

21        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

22        Q            Standing next to the aerial photograph, would

23                    you please point to the direction in which

24                    you have testified you saw people running?

25        A            The direction from where it is indicated

Page 62

1                      Elm Street on here to the direction of the

2                      top of the aerial photograph towards the

3                      grassy knoll.

4          Q            Where did you go?

5          A            I went to the area right below what is indicated

6                      here as the grassy knoll, on the sidewalk.

7          Q            Is there a wooden fence located in that area,

8                      sir?

9          A            There is a wooden stockade fence approximately

10                    6 feet high located along the top of the

11                    grassy knoll.

12        Q            Did you observe anyone going around or over this

13                    fence?

14        A            I observed several men going over the fence.

15        THE COURT:

16                    I know you are going to have quite a bit

17                    more examination so I would think --

18        MR. SCIAMBRA:

19                    I tender the witness, Your Honor.

20        THE COURT:

21                    Then I am going to take a five minute

22                    recess.

23            (WHEREUPON, a short recess was taken.)

24        THE COURT:

25                    Before you proceed, Mr. Dymond, I have

Page 63

1                      two announcements to make.  Number

2                      one, with respect to Article 9, I

3                      have been informed, and I believe it,

4                      because I noticed it myself, that

5                      certain reporters and spectators have

6                      seen fit to leave early this

7                      afternoon trying to scoop the evidence,

8                      and I’m going to have to insist this

9                      rule be followed, so it will not

10                    create noise and confusion in this

11                    court.  No one will be permitted to

12                    enter or leave the courtroom during

13                    the testimony of a witness or argument

14                    by Counsel.  Entry and exit may only

15                    be made during official recesses.

16                                This morning, when it was

17                    announced Mr. Zapruder was going to

18                    be permitted to introduce his film,

19                    when we get to it, someone rushed out

20                    of the courtroom.  If that happens

21                    in the future that person’s creden-

22                    tials will be taken away.  You have

23                    co-operated with me for 23 days and

24                    I have enough problems of my own

25                    without worrying about the reporters

Page 64

1                      and spectators, so I would appreciate

2                      co-operation in this matter.

3                                  One other matter; when court is

4                      adjourned for the evening at 5:30 and

5                      all the spectators have left, and the

6                      Jury has left, I will permit the

7                      various news media to photograph

8                      these three exhibits.  As you know,

9                      we have pins placed in certain

10                    exhibits and if we start moving them

11                    from the courtroom to any other place

12                    we may knock the pins out.  If the

13                    witness has already left town there

14                    may be a discussion as to where the

15                    pin belonged in the first place.  It

16                    is very important these exhibits be

17                    not touched by anybody.  If I make

18                    that concession to the press at 5:30

19                    this afternoon or quarter to 6:00, if

20                    you will act like gentlemen and come

21                    in here I will permit you to photo-

22                    graph the three exhibits.  No one will

23                    get near or touch them because if you

24                    do you may destroy them.  If you want

25                    to get word to your photographers I

Page 65

1                      will permit you to come in this area

2                      over here and take pictures of the

3                      three exhibits.

4                                  Number one, please do not enter

5                      or leave during testimony.

6                                  Number two, you will be able to

7                      take photographs of these exhibits

8                      this afternoon.

9                                  Bring the Jury back, please.

10            (WHEREUPON, the Jury returned to the

11            courtroom.)

12        THE COURT:

13                    Is the State and Defense ready to proceed?

14        MR. DYMOND:

15                    We are ready, Your Honor.

16        MR. ALCOCK:

17                    We are read, Your Honor.

18        THE COURT:

19                    The status of Mr. West is that he has

20                    been tendered for cross-examination.

21        MR. ALCOCK:

22                    That is correct.

23            CROSS-EXAMINATION

24        BY MR. DYMOND:

25        Q            You have been working in the vicinity of

Page 66

1                      Dealey Plaza for many years, have you not,

2                      sir?

3          A            Yes, sir.

4          Q            About how many years?

5          A            Oh, since 1942.

6          Q            Is it not a fact, Mr. West, that Elm Street,

7                      before it goes under the triple overpass,

8                      declines rather sharply?

9          A            Considerably.

10        Q            Is it not also a fact, Mr. West, there being

11                    many buildings around Dealey Plaza there,

12                    that you have the effect of a valley which

13                    is very susceptible to echoes and in which

14                    it is very difficult to determine the

15                    direction from which sound is coming?

16        A            Number one, I don’t remember ever having heard

17                    an echo, or what I knew was an echo.  As

18                    to which way sound is coming from, I don’t

19                    know I ever had any trouble.

20        Q            You say you heard four noises, the first two of

21                    which you thought were motorcycle

22                    backfires and the last two of which you

23                    thought were shots, is that right?

24        A            Right.

25        Q            Mr. West, in your mind are you positive as to

Page 67

1                      the number of sounds you heard, or is that

2                      a matter of some conjecture?

3          A            That was my response on that day.

4          Q            You do admit, sir, the circumstances were very

5                      exciting and created a situation which was

6                      very possibly susceptible to error, do you

7                      not, sir?

8          A            They were extremely exciting.

9          Q            I take it you recognize the fact you could be

10                    mistaken as to the number of sounds, is

11                    that right, sir?

12        A            It is possible.

13        Q            Mr. West, do you remember approximately when

14                    the parade route, that is the route which

15                    the presidential motorcade would take, was

16                    made public in Dallas?

17        A            No, sir, I do not.

18        Q            Could you tell us approximately how long before

19                    the 22nd of November, 1963 --

20        MR. ALCOCK:

21                    Objection, he has already answered the

22                    question.

23        THE COURT:

24                    I will sustain the objection.  If a

25                    person says he doesn’t know how can

Page 68

1                      you get him to approximate it?

2          MR. DYMOND:

3                      He may have learned it from what was

4                      published in the newspaper.

5          MR. ALCOCK:

6                      It is hearsay what he read in the

7                      newspapers.

8          THE COURT:

9                      Can you approximate the time?  When was

10                    it made public?

11        THE WITNESS:

12                    I don’t know when it was made public.

13                    All of the parades up to that time

14                    in Dallas were down Main Street.

15                    They all came by the courthouse and

16                    therefore I felt, or knew, the

17                    parade would come down Main Street.

18                    The route of the procession, as to

19                    when it was published, I couldn’t

20                    say.

21        BY MR. DYMOND:

22        Q            When did you first learn that President Kennedy

23                    was going to come to Dallas?  About how

24                    long before November 22?

25        A            Well, I knew at least a day before when he was

Page 69

1                      in Fort Worth that the plans were for him

2                      to come to Dallas.

3          Q            Did you know as much as a week before

4                      November 22?

5          A            I couldn’t say.

6          Q            Mr. West, would you mind stepping down to this

7                      plat here and pointing out the relative

8                      positions --

9                      THE COURT:

10                    Your back is turned to the Court Reporter,

11                    Mr. Dymond, so would you mind speaking

12                    loudly, please?

13        BY MR. DYMOND:

14        Q            The exhibit is State-35.  Would you point out

15                    the relative positions where you were

16                    standing and the spot where you saw the

17                    motorcade first on Elm Street?  Would you

18                    put your finger on each one of them?

19        A            I was standing at the point indicated by the

20                    pin here at the southeast corner of the

21                    intersection of Main and Houston.  The

22                    first time I saw the motorcade at Elm

23                    Street was at this point here immediately

24                    after we had turned onto Elm Street.

25        Q            Would you kindly place an X on the spot where

Page 70

1                      you first saw the motorcade enter Elm

2                      Street?

3          A            It is approximately at this spot I have marked

4                      with an X on my map.

5          Q            Where was the motorcade when you next saw it

6                      on Elm Street?

7          A            It was approximately where I have indicated by

8                      this X, the first X to the left here.

9          Q            Could you tell me approximately how many feet

10                    the motorcade was when you saw it at the

11                    second spot indicated at Elm Street?

12        A            How many feet between the two points do you

13                    mean?

14        Q            Between you and the spot where you next saw

15                    the parade on Elm Street.

16        A            I would have to have a scale.  360 feet

17                    approximately.

18        Q            All right, sir, you may take the stand again,

19                    thank you.  I understand, Mr. West, it was

20                    your opinion that the noises which you

21                    heard came from northwest of you, is that

22                    correct?

23        A            Right.

24        Q            I would take it that you would not claim to be

25                    able to tell exactly what direction

Page 71

1                      they came from, that is in degrees, would

2                      you, sir?

3          A            No, sir.

4          Q            But you would say generally in a northwesterly

5                      direction, is that right?

6          A            Right.

7          Q            I’m going to ask you whether it is not a fact

8                      that the Texas School Book Depository was

9                      slightly northwest of where you were

10                    standing at that time?

11        A            Right.

12        Q            It was?

13        A            Yes, sir.

14        Q            I hate to impose upon you again, but would you

15                    mind stepping back to the map and pointing

16                    out where the Texas School Book Depository

17                    is?  I would ask you to place an X on it.

18        A            It is in the upper right-hand corner of the

19                    map, indicated on the map by Texas School

20                    Book Depository, 411 Elm Street.

21        Q            Would you also point it out on the aerial

22                    photograph?

23        A            It is in the same relative position, the Texas

24                    School Book Depository Building, lettered

25                    on the front of the building.

Page 72

1          Q            Would it be possible on the aerial photograph

2                      to place an X on the spot you were

3                      standing?

4          A            It would be close.  I couldn’t say whether I

5                      would be behind the part of the old

6                      courthouse shown or not.

7          Q            Would you do your best and explain what error

8                      there may be in this?

9          A            I would be on the sidewalk on the south side of

10                    Elm Street approximately to the left of

11                    the old courthouse building.  I could have

12                    been 5 feet further to the right or behind

13                    the building.

14        Q            You could possible be further to the right of

15                    Main Street to an extent which would not

16                    be shown on this aerial photograph, is that

17                    right, sir?

18        A            Right.

19        Q            You may return to the stand, Mr. West.

20                    Thank you, sir.  Mr. West, you say Dealey

21                    Plaza in general was quite crowded on that

22                    day, was it not, sir?

23        A            There were quite a few people in Dealey Plaza.

24                    As far as the open area being full of

25                    people, no, sir.

Page 73

1          Q            Is it not a fact, sir, some of the crucial

2                      participants in that motorcade ran back

3                      towards the grassy knoll area after the

4                      shots were fired?

5          A            I don’t know who they were.  I know the City

6                      policeman whose motorcycle was parked

7                      there at the curb was upon the grassy

8                      knoll.

9          Q            I take it you don’t know if they were trying

10                    to get away from the shots or why they were

11                    going over the fence?

12        A            No, sir.

13        MR. DYMOND:

14                    That’s all, thank you, sir.

15             REDIRECT EXAMINATION

16        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

17        Q            Mr. West, you went in the direction of the

18                    grassy knoll --

19        MR. DYMOND:

20                    Objection to leading the witness.

21        MR. SCIAMBRA:

22                    He testified to it.

23        MR. DYMOND:

24                    I object to repeating the witness’ answer.

25        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

Page 74

1          Q            In what direction did you go after the motor-

2                      cade disappeared under the underpass?

3          A            Towards what is shown as the grassy knoll.

4          Q            Why did you go in that direction?

5          A            Because that is what appeared to me --

6          MR. DYMOND:

7                      I object to what appeared to him to be.

8          THE COURT:

9                      I will overrule the objection.

10        MR. DYMOND:

11                    To which ruling Counsel reserves a bill,

12                    making the question, the answer and

13                    the entire testimony up to this point

14                    and the ruling of the Court as part

15                    of the bill.

16        THE WITNESS:

17                    It appeared to me all the action, all the

18                    activity, was going on in that

19                    particular part.

20        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

21        Q            How many parades have you seen come down

22                    Main Street?

23        A            One hundred I guess.

24        Q            In order to go from Main Street in the most

25                    direct route to the Trade Mart, in what

Page 75

1                      direction would you go on reaching Houston?

2          A            I would go to Elm Street.

3          Q            Why is that, sir?

4          A            To get on the Stemmons Freeway.

5          Q            Why would you turn off of Main Street at that

6                      point?

7          A            There is no access from Main Street to the

8                      Stemmons Freeway.  The only access to it

9                      is from Elm Street.

10        Q            Did you testify before the Warren Commission?

11        A            No, sir.

12        Q            Did any FBI agent ever interview you?

13        A            Ever what?

14        Q            Ever interview you relative to what you heard

15                    in Dealey Plaza?

16        A            No, sir.

17        MR. SCIAMBRA:

18                    I have no further questions.

19        RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION

20        BY MR. DYMOND:

21        Q            Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald there?

22        A            No.

23        Q            Did you ever see this Defendant, Clay Shaw

24                    there?

25        A            No, sir.

Page 76

1          MR. DYMOND:

2                      That’s all.

3          THE COURT:

4                      You may step down.

5            (WITNESS EXCUSED.)

6            ...oOo...

7            ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER,

8            recalled to the stand, having previously been sworn

9            testified further on his oath as follows:

10        THE COURT:

11                    Your previous oath is till binding,

12                    Mr. Zapruder.

13             DIRECT EXAMINATION

14            (CONTINUED)

15        BY MR. OSER:

16        Q            Mr. Zapruder, will you tell me again where your

17                    business is located?

18        A            501 Elm Street.

19        Q            In what building is that?

20        A            The Daltex Building.

21        Q            On November 22, 1963, did you have an occasion

22                    to be in the area of Dallas, Texas, known

23                    as Dealey Plaza?

24        MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:

25                    This is repetitious.

Page 77

1          MR. OSER:

2                      I am getting back to where we were.

3          THE WITNESS:

4                      I don’t understand the question.  Will

5                      you repeat it?

6          THE COURT:

7                      I will allow the question.

8          BY MR. OSER:

9          Q            On the date of November 22, 1963, did you have

10                    an occasion to be in that area of Dallas

11                    known as Dealey Plaza?

12        A            I imagine you mean at the place where I was

13                    taking pictures.

14        Q            Yes.

15        A            Yes, I came down to take pictures of the

16                    President and whatever it was.

17        Q            From what area or location did you view the

18                    motorcade?  Where were you?

19        A            I was on the abutment.  Do you mean geographical-

20                    ly, whether it is east, west, north or

21                    south?  Is that what you want to know?

22        Q            Yes, sir.  Where were you?

23        A            I will have to figure it out.

24        Q            Where were you standing?

25        A            When I took the pictures?

Page 78

1          Q            Yes, sir.

2          A            On a concrete abutment.

3          Q            I ask you to step down in front of Exhibit S-34

4                      for the purpose of identification, and

5                      point out to the Court whether you can

6                      location your position where you were

7                      standing when you took some movie films on

8                      November 22, 1963, if you would, please?

9          A            Right here.

10        Q            Would you put an X there please?

11        THE COURT:

12                    May I make a suggestion; we are going to

13                    have too many X’s.  Would you put a

14                    Z for Zapruder.

15        BY MR. OSER:

16        Q            I direct your attention to Exhibit S-36 for

17                    purpose of identification, which I am now

18                    pointing to -- I am sorry, S-35.  Could

19                    you locate the position on this exhibit

20                    where you were on November 22, 1963, taking

21                    motion pictures?

22        A            Over here.

23        Q            Mr. Zapruder, would you please place this pin

24                    with your name thereon at the location?

25        A            (The witness complies.)

Page 79

1          Q            Now, Mr. Zapruder, I direct your attention to

2                      State Exhibit S-36 for identification, and

3                      ask if you can locate on this markup the

4                      location you were on November 22, 1963?

5          A            Is this the Daltex Building?

6          THE COURT:

7                      Unless the Jury can hear you it is no good

8                      your giving evidence.

9          THE WITNESS:

10                    I asked if this was the Daltex Building.

11        THE COURT:

12                    I can’t hear a word you are saying.

13        THE WITNESS:

14                    I asked if this was the Daltex Building.

15        THE COURT:

16                    If you don’t know, who would know it?

17        THE WITNESS:

18                    Give me some time.

19        THE COURT:

20                    You can take all the time you need.

21        BY MR. OSER:

22        Q            I give you a small emblem.  Would you place

23                    that in the location where you were when

24                    you took the photographs?

25        A            (The witness complied.)

Page 80

1          Q            Thank you.  Have your seat back, please, on the

2                      stand. Mr. Zapruder, as you were standing

3                      in this location that you have pointed out

4                      taking your motion pictures what, if

5                      anything, did you see as you took this

6                      film?  Would you please describe it for

7                      the Jury?

8          A            I don’t understand the question.

9          Q            What did you see as you took your films in

10                    Dealey Plaza that day?  Explain to the

11                    Jury.

12        A            I saw the approaching motorcade of the

13                    President coming from Houston Street,

14                    turning left on Elm Street and coming

15                    down towards the underpass.  As they were

16                    approaching where I was standing I heard

17                    a shot and noticed where the President

18                    leaned towards Jackie.  Then I heard

19                    another shot which hit him right in the

20                    head, over here, and his head practically

21                    opened up and a lot of blood and many more

22                    things came out.

23        Q            At the time, Mr. Zapruder, you heard the first

24                    shot were you able to see what reactions,

25                    if any, President Kennedy made at the

Page 81

1                      time you heard this first shot?  What

2                      did he do, sir, as you saw it?

3          A            As I said, he grabbed himself with his hand

4                      towards his chest or throat and leaned

5                      towards Jackie.

6          Q            At the time you heard the second shot, would

7                      you describe the reactions of

8                      President Kennedy as you saw them?

9          A            He leaned about the same way in falling towards

10                    Jacqueline, forward, down towards the

11                    bottom of the car.

12        Q            What happened at the time of the second shot

13                    in regard to President Kennedy?

14        A            What happened -- I don’t understand.

15        Q            As you saw it, what happened at the time the

16                    second shot went off in regard to

17                    President Kennedy?  What did you see?

18        A            I thought I just described what I saw.  You

19                    mean where it hit him?

20        Q            Yes.

21        A            I saw the head practically open up and blood

22                    and many more things, whatever it was,

23                    brains, just came out of his head.

24        Q            At the time when you heard these two shots,

25                    who was standing with you, if anybody?

Page 82

1          A            One of my secretaries was right behind me.

2          Q            After the car passed under the underpass, what

3                      did you do?

4          A            I got off the abutment and walked towards my

5                      office.  I was screaming “They shot him,

6                      they shot him.”  People asked me what

7                      happened, they probably didn’t see what

8                      happened, they heard a shot but didn’t

9                      see actually what happened.  I kept saying,

10                    “They killed him, they killed him,” and

11                    went to my office.

12        Q            When you got to your office what, if anything,

13                    did you do with regard to your movie

14                    camera and films?

15        A            I had my secretary call either the police or

16                    the FBI, I don’t remember which.  She

17                    called somebody.  The Secret Service

18        Q            After this did you do anything in regard to

19                    your film?  Did you go anywhere with your

20                    film?

21        A            Yes, sir, a patrol car came and took me down

22                                to a station where they were trying to

23                                develop films, but they hadn’t got the

24                                facilities to develop colored film.  We

25                                called the Eastman Kodak people and made

Page 83

1                                  arrangements for them to develop the

2                                  film.  We went to the Eastman people.

3          Q            After going to the Eastman people did you go

4                                  anywhere else with your film?

5          A            Yes.  They advised me not to cut the film.

6                      This was 8 millimeter of the old type that

7                      was actually a 16 millimeter film, it was

8                      cut after it was developed, and they

9                      advised me to go to another -- I think it

10                    was Jameson film, or something like that,

11                    to have them developed there into a 16,

12                    and they were to somehow process it and

13                    split 8 millimeter, and that’s what I did.

14        Q            As a result of going with your film to these

15                    various locations, Mr. Zapruder, did you

16                    have in your possession a developed roll

17                    of film, and if so, how many of them?

18        A            The first time the Jameson people developed

19                    the original 16 millimeter, then copies

20                    were made at Eastman.  I had three copies

21                    plus the original.

22        Q            What, if anything, did you do with the three

23                    copies and one original?

24        A            One copy was given to the Dallas Secret

25                    Service, and one they asked me to bring

Page 84

1                      over to somewhere on Akard Street, I

2                      believe it was the FBI or Secret Service,

3                      to give them a copy to be sent to

4                      Washington.  I think it was sent to

5                      Washington the same night by Army plane.

6                      One copy was given to Life Magazine.

7          Q            During the time your film was being processed,

8                      were you present, sir?

9          A            Yes, sir, I was.

10        Q            On that particular day did you have occasion

11                    to view what your film showed?

12        A            Yes, the same evening I saw this film.

13        Q            Mr. Zapruder, do you have in your possession at

14                    this present time a copy of this film?

15        A            Yes, I do.

16        Q            May I have it, sir?

17        A            Yes.

18        MR. OSER:

19                    If the Court please, the State will mark

20                    the envelope containing a roll of

21                    film as S-37 for purposes of

22                    identification.

23        THE COURT:

24                    And for purposes of identification only?

25        MR. OSER:

Page 85

1                      Yes, sir.

2          BY MR. OSER:

3          Q            The contents of this package, the roll of

4                      film, have you had occasion to view the

5                      contents of this film?

6          A            Yes, sir.

7          Q            What is contained on this roll of film, is that

8                      the same as you saw it from the developed

9                      original on November 22, 1963?

10        A            Yes, sir.

11        Q            Mr. Zapruder, what is depicted on this exhibit

12                    I have marked as S-37, the roll of film,

13                    as you saw it?

14        MR. DYMOND:

15                    I object.  We object to his testifying as

16                    to what is depicted on it.  If the

17                    film is admissible the film itself

18                    is best evidence.

19        THE COURT:

20                    I sustain the objection.

21        MR. OSER:

22                    At this time we offer into evidence that

23                    which we previously marked for

24                    identification as S-37, the film

25                    testified to by Mr. Zapruder.

Page 86

1          MR. DYMOND:

2                      At this time we would like to traverse on

3                      the offer.

4          THE COURT:

5                      You may traverse.

6          BY MR. DYMOND:

7          Q            You say you were present when the copies of

8                      your film were made?

9          A            Yes, sir.

10        Q            Were you actually present in the room in which

11                    these copies were being made?

12        A            Yes, sir, I was in the processing room watching

13                    them actually process the film.

14        Q            Is the copy you have here today identical to

15                    the original or are there any plates

16                    missing out of this copy?

17        A            That would be hard for me to tell, sir.

18        THE COURT:

19                    I cannot hear the witness.  What is it?

20        THE WITNESS:

21                    That would be hard for me to say.  He

22                    asked me if there are any frames

23                    missing.

24        THE COURT:

25                    What is your answer?

Page 87

1          THE WITNESS:

2                      I couldn’t say.

3          BY MR. DYMOND:

4          Q            So you don’t know whether it is a complete copy

5                      of the film you took on the 22nd of

6                      November?

7          A            Not if there are one or two frames missing, I

8                      couldn’t tell you.

9          Q            Mr. Zapruder, when these copies were made, do

10                    I understand you ended up with an original

11                    and two copies of the film?

12        A            Yes, sir.

13        Q            You gave one copy to the Dallas Police

14                    Intelligence Section, is that correct?

15        A            Yes, sir.

16        Q            One copy to the FBI?

17        A            Correct.

18        Q            And one copy to Life Magazine?

19        A            Yes, sir.

20        Q            Where did you get this copy you have produced

21                    here in open court today, if you disposed of

22                    all the copies?

23        A            I got them from Mr. Oser’s office.

24        Q            In other words, this film has not been in your

25                    possession up until now, is that correct?

Page 88

1          A            No.  It was given to me in his office.

2          MR. DYMOND:

3                      That is all we have on traverse, Your

4                      Honor, and we submit the proper

5                      foundation has not been laid for

6                      the introduction of this film in

7                      evidence.

8          THE COURT:

9                      Take the Jury out, Sheriff.

10            (WHEREUPON, the Jury retired from

11                    the courtroom.)

12        THE COURT:

13                    The objection is well taken for this

14                    reason: Mr. Zapruder did not bring

15                    this film with him, and I would

16                    suggest before I make a final ruling

17                    that you roll the film for the

18                    benefit of Mr. Zapruder only so that

19                    he can see what is depicted on that

20                    day.  You could then renew your

21                    offer and I will rule on it.

22        MR. OSER:

23                    All right, Your Honor.

24        THE COURT:

25                    Is it necessary for us to black out and

Page 89

1                      cut the lights out in the room?

2          MR. OSER:

3                      I think so, Your Honor.

4          THE COURT:

5                      Very well.  Sheriff, will you throw those

6                      switches.  Mr. Zapruder, when this

7                      equipment is properly rigged up and

8                      they play this film, don’t say

9                      anything while they are playing the

10                    film.  You will be asked questions

11                    after the film is played.

12            (WHEREUPON, the film was shown.)

13        THE COURT:

14                    Before we bring the Jury in, I think

15                    the State has to ask a question of

16                    this witness.

17        MR. DYMOND:

18                    There is one question I would like to

19                    ask also, Judge.

20        THE COURT:

21                    Let Mr. Oser ask his question first.

22        BY MR. OSER:

23        Q            Mr. Zapruder, from having seen the film just

24                    projected on the screen, can you tell us

25                    whether or not this represents what you

Page 90

1                      saw on November 22, 1963, after your

2                      original film was developed in Dallas,

3                      Texas?

4          A            I would say they do.

5          THE COURT:

6                      I didn’t hear you again.

7          THE WITNESS:

8                      I would say that they do.  Yes, they do.

9          BY MR. DYMOND:

10        Q            Mr. Zapruder, are you able to testify that this

11                    film that you have just seen run is a

12                    complete copy of the pictures taken by you

13                    on that day, no frames being missing?

14        A            By complete, what do you mean?  If there are

15                    any frames removed or so?

16        Q            Any frames removed or damaged or for any

17                    reason not shown in this film?

18        A            I couldn’t tell you.

19        Q            So you couldn’t tell whether any part has been

20                    skipped, is that correct?

21        A            I could not.

22        THE COURT:

23                    Bring the Jury back.

24            (WHEREUPON, the Jury returned to the

25            courtroom.)

Page 91

1          THE COURT:

2                      All right, Mr. Oser, you may proceed.

3          BY MR. OSER:

4          Q            Mr. Zapruder, from having seen what was

5                      projected on this film, can you tell the

6                      Court whether or not it appears to be the

7                      same as you viewed your original film on

8                      November 22, 1963 in Dallas, Texas?

9          A            Yes, it does.

10        MR. OSER:

11                    I tender the witness on traverse.

12        BY MR. DYMOND:

13        Q            This will sound repetitious, but it is because

14                    the Jury has now come in.  Having viewed

15                    this film, sir, are you in a position to

16                    say whether the film you have just seen

17                    is a complete copy of what you took with-

18                    out any frames having been deleted or

19                    taken out or skipped?

20        A            I couldn’t tell if any frames were removed.

21                    Seen as a whole it shows that I have seen.

22                    Seeing you have 18 frames a second you

23                    can take out one or two and I couldn’t

24                    tell.

25        Q            Weren’t some frames damaged by the people at

Page 92

1                      Life Magazine to the point where copies

2                      couldn’t be made of them?

3          MR. OSER:

4                      Objection.

5          THE COURT:

6                      I will permit the question on traverse.

7          THE WITNESS:

8                      I don’t know, I couldn’t verify that.

9          THE COURT:

10                    Is the matter submitted?

11        MR. OSER:

12                    We submit it, Your Honor.

13        THE COURT:

14                    I rule the film may be shown to the Jury.

15        MR. DYMOND:

16                    To which ruling Counsel reserves a bill

17                    of exception firstly because the

18                    film is irrelevant, secondly it has

19                    not been established this is the

20                    complete film, and further, it has

21                    not been in the possession or under

22                    the control of this witness from the

23                    time of its inception until the

24                    present time, making all this

25                    witness’ testimony, the film which

Page 93

1                      has been marked for identification as

2                      State-37, and the entire record up

3                      to now part of the bill.

4          THE COURT:

5                      The Court’s ruling was made after the Jury

6                      had retired and the witness was given

7                      an opportunity to see the film, since

8                      it was not in his continuous

9                      possession.  You may proceed.

10        MR. OSER:

11                    At this time the State requests permission

12                    to play the film.

13        THE COURT:

14                    Permission granted.  Gentlemen of the Jury,

15                    please pay close attention to what

16                    you are about to see.

17            (WHEREUPON, the film was then shown

18        again.)

19        THE COURT:

20                    If it is requested by the Jury we will

21                    rerun this film.

22        MR. OSER:

23                    If the Court please, I would like the

24                    record to reflect that I am now

25                    turning over the exhibit to the

Page 94

1                      Clerk of the Court, that is S-37.

2          THE COURT:

3                      You mean the Minute Clerk.  I have already

4                      ruled on the fact it may be shown to

5                      the Jury.  Is there any objection to

6                      its admission?

7          MR. DYMOND:

8                      I have already objected earlier.

9          THE COURT:

10                    It may be admitted.

11            (WHEREUPON, the exhibit having been

12            previously identified as “S-37" was

13            received in evidence.)

14        THE COURT:

15                    The witness may be excused.

16            (WHEREUPON, the witness was excused.)

17        THE COURT:

18                    We will take a five-minute recess.

19            (WHEREUPON, a short recess was taken>)

20        THE COURT:

21                    Gentlemen, before we proceed any further,

22                    I have been advised that the Jury

23                    would like to have the film replayed.

24                    I will order the Minute Clerk, who

25                    has possession of Exhibit S-37, to

Page 95

1                      turn it back over to Mr. Oser.

2                      Let that show in the record.

3            (WHEREUPON, the film was then shown

4          again.)

5          THE COURT:

6                      I have been advised that a reporter had the

7                      gall to ask if he could take a picture

8                      of this film while it was being shown

9                      in court.  Don’t they realize all rights

10                    are served on this picture?

11        MR. OSER:

12                    That is why I turned it over to the Court.

13        THE COURT:

14                    I don’t want anybody surreptitiously trying

15                    to take pictures of this film.

16                    Let the film be shown again frame by frame.

17            (WHEREUPON, the film was then shown again,

18        frame by frame.)

19        A MEMBER OF THE JURY:

20                    Begging your pardon, but I would appreciate

21                    it if we could see the last half of this

22                    film one more time at normal speed.

23        THE COURT:

24                    Very well, rewind it.

25            (WHEREUPON, the last half of the film

Page 96

1          was then played again.)

2          THE COURT:

3                      Was that the part you wanted?

4          A MEMBER OF THE JURY:

5                      Yes, sir, thank you, sir.

6          THE COURT:

7                      Gentlemen, I understand from the State

8                      they have a witness who wants to be

9                      heard this afternoon.  It is 29

10                    minutes after 5:00.  Is your witness

11                    planning to leave the state this evening?

12        MR. ALCOCK:

13                    Yes, sir.

14        THE COURT:

15                    How long will he be?

16        MR. ALCOCK:

17                    Direct Examination will take no more than

18                    10, 15 minutes.

19        MR. OSER:

20                    May the record reflect I am returning

21                    the film to the Minute Clerk.

22             ...oOo...

23

24

25

Page 97

1          C E R T I F I C A T E

2                                  I, the undersigned, Clifford Jefferson, do

3          hereby certify:

4                                  That the above and foregoing (96 pages of

5            typewritten matter) is a true and correct transcription

6          of the stenographic notes of the proceedings had herein,

7          the same having been taken down by Clifford Jefferson and

8            transcribed under his supervision, on the date and day

9            hereinbefore noted, in the Criminal District Court for

10        the Parish of Orleans, State of Louisiana, in the matter of

11        the State of Louisiana vs. Clay L. Shaw, 198-059 1426 (30)

12        Section “C” on the 13th day of February, 1969, before the

13            Honorable Edward A. Haggerty, Jr., Judge, Section “C”,

14        being an excerpt of the testimony of certain witnesses

15        as shown in the index hereof.

16                                New Orleans, Louisiana, this 23rd day of May,

17        1969.

18                                                                                    /S/ Clifford Jefferson   

                                                                                    CLIFFORD JEFFERSON

19                                                                                REPORTER

20

21

22

23

24

25

2020

 

            CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT

            PARISH OF ORLEANS

            STATE OF LOUISIANA

 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

                                                                        .

STATE OF LOUISIANA                           .            198-059

                                                                        .

vs.                                                                   .            1426 (30)

                                                                        .

CLAY L. SHAW                                     .            SECTION “C”

                                                                        .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

 

            EXCERPT OF THE TESTIMONY

            TAKEN IN OPEN COURT

            February 13, 1969

 

B E F O R E:            THE HONORABLE EDWARD A. HAGGERTY, JR.,

                                    JUDGE, SECTION "C"


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