| JFK Main Page | Alteration Page | History of the Zapruder Film |

Abraham Zapruder - Under Oath -
Authenticates His Film

STATE OF LOUISIANA
versus
CLAY L. SHAW


Download this page (a 44KB .zip file) to read offline.

Purchase "The Clay Shaw Trial" CD-ROM


The Indictment that brought Clay L. Shaw to trial:

THE INDICTMENT.

"The Grand Jurors of the State of Louisiana, duly impaneled and sworn in and for the body of the Parish of Orleans, in the name and by the authority of the said State, upon their oath, PRESENT That one CLAY L. SHAW, late of the Parish of Orleans, between the 1st day of September and the 10th day of October, in the year of our Lord, One Thousand, Nine Hundred Sixty-Three, with force and arms in the Parish of Orleans aforesaid, and within the jurisdiction of the Criminal District Court for the Parish of Orleans did willfully and unlawfully conspire with DAVID W. FERRIE, herein named but not charged and LEE HARVEY OSWALD, herein named but not charged and others, not herein named, to murder JOHN F. KENNEDY, contrary to the form of Statute of the State of Louisiana in such cases made and provided and against the peace and dignity of the same."

Signed ALVIN V. OSER, Assistant District Attorney of the Parish of Orleans.
No. 198-059 (M-703) Section 'C'
STATE OF LOUISIANA versus CLAY L. SHAW
INDICTMENT FOR VIO R.S. 14:26 (30)
TRUE BILL /s/ ALVERT V. LaBICHE, Foreman of Grand Jury
New Orleans, March 22, 1967
Returned in Open Court and recorded and filed March 22, 1967
/s/ GEORGE W. PLATT, Minute Clerk

Clay L. Shaw was a respected New Orleans businessman. It was also later learned that he was a contract agent for the CIA.

Shaw passed away in 1974. He is the only individual ever prosecuted in respect to the assassination of President Kennedy. When New Orleans District Attorney Earling Carothers "Jim" Garrison heard that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested for the assassination of President Kennedy, Garrison remembered that a Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested only three months earlier in New Orleans while Oswald was passing out pro-Fidel Castro literature on a local street corner.

"Somewhere in the vortex that was the Clay Shaw trial," writes Walt Brown and Jan Stevens, "the American people began to see conspiracy emerging in the death of John F. Kennedy ...

"The case was weakened by several of the witnesses Garrison was able to produce, many of whom had credibility factors weighing against them, as well as by the death of [David] Ferrie, who knew too much to ever sit in a witness box.

"The case was also damaged by the volume of interested government officials, some of whom may have had agendas other than seeing justice done. Garrison was denied extraditions and/or subpoenas of witness like Allen Dulles, Richard Case Nagell and others whose testimony could have had an important impact on the outcome.

"The testimony of police officer Aloysius Habighorst - who had booked Shaw and noted Shaw’s admission of the "Bertrand" alias - was not allowed in court. We now know that Garrison’s office was infiltrated by those outside of his employ. Files were stolen, phones probably tapped, key records surreptitiously given to the defense team. Ultimately, the process wore down all the participants, and Shaw was acquitted. Some jurors felt that though there was seemingly a conspiracy in the assassination, Shaw’s involvement in it was not proven to their satisfaction.

"Had Garrison had some of the subsequent information of Shaw’s involvement in the Permindex Corporation or any of the recently released documentation of his association with covert activities of the CIA, the verdict may have been otherwise..."

Jim Garrison questioned the government's intelligence operations in open court. Against all odds, he was questioning officials and battling a hostile press. Walt Brown and Jan Stevens: "For all his contemporaneous pronouncements and mistakes, [Garrison] was the only man who ever took on the conspiracy in the courtroom. He started a process that brought forth some new information we now know to be true, and leads that are still being looked into by JFK researchers."

As you read through this portion of testimony you will feel the argumentative, quarrelsome atmosphere of that Lousiana court room. This isn't a script for today's Law and Order television series: You will read a soft-spoken, mild-mannered Abraham Zapruder facing an inoperative witness microphone; attorneys throwing out more objections than Robert Shapiro, and an overall hostile environment.

Here is the entire session of Abraham Zapruder's testimony, which was interrupted by the testimony of Robert West. The entire day's session is presented un-cut. It is doubtful we'll ever read any future sworn testimony on this - the "murder case of the century."

-Clint Bradford, September 1999

Comments


Proceedings in Open Court on February 13, 1969
Witnesses: Abraham Zapruder; Robert West

1            AFTERNOON SESSION

1          THE COURT:

2                      Is the State and the Defense ready?

3          MR. ALCOCK:

4                      We are ready, Your Honor.

5          THE COURT:

6                      You may proceed.

10             ...oOo...

11             ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER,

12        after first being duly sworn, was examined and

13            testified on his oath as follows:

14        THE COURT:

15                    The spelling of the witness’ name is

16                    Abraham Zapruder, Z-A-P-R-U-D-E-R,

17                    is that correct?

18        THE WITNESS:

19                    Z-A-P-R-U-D-E-R, correct.

20        THE COURT:

21                    Very well, you may proceed.

22            DIRECT EXAMINATION

23        BY MR. OSER:

24        Q            State your name for the record please?

25        A            Abraham Zapruder.

Page 3

1          Q            Where do you live, Mr. Zapruder?

2          A            3909 Marquette, Dallas, Texas.

3          Q            Mr. Zapruder, what is your occupation?

4          A            I manufacture ladies’ dresses.

5          THE COURT:

6                      I can’t hear you.

7          THE WITNESS:

8                      I manufacture ladies’ dresses.

9          MR. OSER:

10                    I don’t believe it is coming over that

11                    mike at all.

12        THE COURT:

13                    I think the engineer is here.  See if

14                    someone can fix this microphone.

15                    Say, “one, two, three, four,” and

16                    see if the man in the back row can

17                    hear you.

18        THE WITNESS:

19                    One, two, three, four.

20        THE COURT:

21                    Can you speak a little louder?

22        THE WITNESS:

23                    Yes, I can.

24        THE COURT:

25                    Try one more time.  Let’s go.

Page 4

1          BY MR. OSER:

2          Q            Mr. Zapruder, during November, 1963, what was

3                      your occupation?

4          A            I can hardly hear you now.

5          Q            During November of 1963, what was your

6                      occupation?

7          A            The same.

8          Q            Where is your business located in Dallas?

9          A            501 Elm Street.

10        Q            Does the business location have a name to the

11                    building?

12        A            Yes, it is the Daltex Building.

13        Q            I direct your attention to the date of

14                    November 22, 1963, and ask you where you

15                    were at approximately 12:15 p.m. on that

16                    date?

17        A            12:15 p.m. I was looking for a place where

18                    to stand so I would be able to take

19                    pictures of the arrival of the President.

20        Q            Was anybody with you at this time?

21        A            Yes, one of my secretaries.

22        Q            Did you find such a location?

23        A            After three attempts, yes.

24        Q            What location did you decide upon?

25        A            There was a concrete abutment about 4 feet

Page 5

1                      tall and that’s where I decided to stay.

2          MR. OSER:

3                      What is the next exhibit number?

3          THE MINUTE CLERK:

4                      Thirty-three.

5          BY MR. OSER:

6          Q            Mr. Zapruder, I show you what the State has

8                      marked for the purpose of identification

9                      as S-33, and ask you if you have ever

10                    seen this exhibit before?

11        A            You mean this picture?

12        Q            Yes, sir.

13        A            Yes.

14        Q            Do you recognize what is depicted in that

15                    photograph, sir?

16        A            Are you referring to my --

17        THE COURT:

18                    You are not going to have a private

19                    conversation.  Everything is

20                    supposed to go into the record, so

21                    speak into the microphone loud and

22                    clear.

23        THE WITNESS:

24                    What is the question?

25        BY MR. OSER:

Page 6

1          Q            Do you recognize anything depicted in that

2                      photograph, sir?

3          A            Yes.

4          Q            What do you recognize?

5          A            I recognize myself standing there with my

6                      secretary on the aforementioned 4 foot

7                      concrete abutment.

8          Q            Would you circle for me the location with this

9                      pen on the photograph where you say you

10                    are depicted?

11        A            Okay.

12        Q            Mr. Zapruder, while you were standing on this

13                    concrete abutment did you do anything in

14                    particular in regard to what you were

15                    waiting to see and hear?

16        A            Did I do anything?

17        Q            Yes, sir, did you have anything with you and

18                    did you do anything?

19        A            I had a camera with me.

20        Q            What type of camera did you have?

21        A            A Bell & Howell motion picture camera,

22                    8 millimeter, with a zoom lens.

23        Q            Can you tell us what was the color?

24        A            It was loaded with color film.

25        Q            What was the color of the camera itself?

Page 7

1          A            I believe it was black.

2          Q            Do you know what type of lens you had in this

3                      camera?

4          A            I’m not sure, but I believe it was 2.8.

5          Q            Which I believe you said is commonly known as

6                      a zoom lens?

7          A            Yes.

8          MR. DYMOND:

9                      I object, he is leading the witness.

10        THE COURT:

11                    Don’t lead the witness.

12        MR. OSER:

13                    He already testified to that.

14        THE COURT:

15                    You can’t lead him even though he has

16                    said it.

17        MR. OSER:

18                    At this time the State wishes to use one

19                    of its other exhibits.

20        MR. DYMOND:

21                    We object to it being submitted to the

22                    Jury until it is submitted in

23                    evidence.

24        THE COURT:

25                    Take the Jury into their room.

Page 8

1            (WHEREUPON, the Jury retired to

2          the Jury Room.)

3          THE COURT:

4                      Now, Mr. Oser, the photograph which you

5                      have numbered S-33 for identifica-

6                      tion purposes, I understand you are

7                      going to make an offer of that

8                      photograph to be received in

9                      evidence, and if it is received

10                    then you wish to present an

11                    enlargement, is that correct?

12        MR. OSER:

13                    No, Your Honor, other exhibits.

14        THE COURT:

15                    A separate exhibit?

16        MR. OSER:

17                    Yes, Your Honor, separate from Exhibit

18                    S-33 for identification.

19        THE COURT:

20                    You may show us the exhibit and we will

21                    see what it is.

22        MR. DYMOND:

23                    If the Court please, at this time we

24                    object to all this testimony

25                    concerning Dealey Plaza on the

Page 9

1                      ground of relevancy.  Your Honor has

2                      ruled many, many times that there is

3                      no connection between the happenings

4                      at Dealey Plaza and this case.  The

5                      only overt act alleged by the State

6                      in connection with happenings at

7                      Dallas at that time was the alleged

8                      taking by Lee Harvey Oswald of the

9                      gun from his home to the School Book

10                    Depository.  I refer Your Honor to

11                    RS15:441, which gives a codal

12                    definition of relevant evidence and

13                    reads as follows:

14                                “Relevant evidence is that

15                                tending to show the commission of

16                                the offense and the intent or

17                                tending to negative the commission

18                                of the offense and the intent.  The

19                                facts necessary to be known to

20                                explain a relevant fact or which

21                                support and inference raised by

22                                such a fact are admissible.”

23                    It is our contention that none

24                    of this evidence comes within that

25                    codal definition of relevant

Page 10

1                      evidence.  It is on that basis that

2                      we object.

3          MR. ALCOCK:

4                      I think, Your Honor, we have argued this

5                      at length on prior occasions, but I

6                      think the words Mr. Dymond noted

7                      towards the end of his argument are

8                      important, that is, “The facts

9                      necessary to be known to explain a

10                    relevant fact or which support an

11                    inference raised by such a fact are

12                    admissible.”

13                    We have in the record of this

14                    case an alleged discussion

15                    participated in by the Defendant,

16                    Lee Oswald and David Ferrie relative

17                    to the assassination of the President

18                    of the United States.  We have a

19                    discussion of triangulation of

20                    crossfire, the use of rifles in the

21                    assassination attempt, or in the

22                    discussion itself, and certainly

23                    this evidence the State submits,

24                    will be connected up.  The State

25                    also suggests it is highly

Page 11

1                      corroborative of this conspiratorial

2                      meeting and for this reason the

3                      State submits it is relevant to the

4                      facts already stated in evidence --

5          MR. DYMOND:

6                      Your Honor, all the things Mr. Alcock

7                      outlined were alleged and have been

8                      before the Court for approximately

9                      two years, and were the basis for

10                    all Your Honor’s rulings up till

11                    now, that there was no connection

12                    between what happened, so the State

13                    argued, and now we have here a

14                    complete reversal of the position.

15        MR. ALCOCK:

16                    The State has never reversed its

17                    position.  The State’s position was

18                    that it could, if it wanted to,

19                    overprove its case.  The State

20                    admits, and this Court has acknow-

21                    ledged on numerous occasions, the

22                    State does not have to prove, as a

23                    matter of law, the President was

24                    killed as a result of this alleged

25                    conspiratorial meeting.  However,

Page 12

1                      the State may call evidence which

2                      tends to confirm or corroborate that

3                      it was discussed.  It would then be

4                      the duty of the Jury to decide

5                      whether or not to give any weight to

6                      the evidence adduced regarding the

7                      events in Dallas, Texas, relative

8                      to the actual assassination area.

9                      They can consider the President was

10                    shot on that occasion, and if the

11                    State can prove he was shot from

12                    more than one direction the State has

13                    in effect proven a conspiracy, or

14                    more than one person shooting at

15                    him, and these are things the Jury

16                    can infer from this evidence and

17                    they are simply and purely corrobor-

18                    ative of the testimony of

19                    Perry Russo, and in addition to that

20                    the testimony of Mr. Spiesel, who

21                    also mentioned the fact of shooting

22                    the President with rifles.

23        MR. DYMOND:

24        Your Honor, nothing Mr. Alcock says

25                    presents anything that has not been

Page 13

1                      before this Court and used as a

2                      basis for Your Honor’s previous

3                      rulings.  It is Your Honor’s job to

4                      decide what is relevant and what is

5                      not relevant.

6          THE COURT:

7                      I’m aware of that.

8          MR. DYMOND:

9                      It is not up to the Jury.

10        THE COURT:

11                    You have made your arguments to me and

12                    I understand both arguments advanced.

13                    The evidence must be relevant to a

14                    material issue.

15                    I am going to read again

16                    Article 441, which you read, and

17                    also read a little further.

18                    “Relevant evidence is that

19                    tending to show . . . .”

20                    (REPORTER’S NOTE: The quoted passage was

21                    not handed to the Reporter; the reader

22                    is referred to the source.)

23                    There is no question about it,

24                    that the State can overprove its

25                    case if it so desires, and I feel

Page 14

1                      the evidence that is now being

2                      offered as to what occurred in

3                      Dallas is relevant evidence and I

4                      will admit it and therefore I will

5                      overrule your objection.

6          MR. DYMOND:

7                      To which ruling Counsel objects and

8                      reserves a bill of exception, making

9                      the entire testimony of this witness,

10                    the Defense’s objection and the

11                    Court’s ruling and the record up to

12                    this time part of the bill.

13        THE COURT:

14                    Let us see this exhibit.  What is that

15                    and who is that and who are you

16                    going to use to identify it?

17        MR. OSER:

18                    Mr. Zapruder and Mr. Robert West, who is

19                    the County Surveyor for Dallas,

20                    Texas and has been since 1944.

21        THE COURT:

22                    The County Surveyor would be the person

23                    who could say whether or not this

24                    is a true representation of that

25                    area on that date.  What date was

Page 15

1                      is taken?

2          MR. OSER:

3                      I don’t know the date it was taken,

4                      Your Honor, but this represents

5                      Dealey Plaza on November 22.

6          THE COURT:

7                      The materiality depends upon it portraying

8                      the conditions that existed at 12:15

9                      on November 22, 1963.  If it does

10                    then it is relevant, if it does not,

11                    it is not.

12        MR. OSER:

13                    Mr. West can identify it as to the

14                    topographical arrangements and the

15                    buildings and streets and other

16                    things being the same in this picture

17                    as they were on November 22, 1963.

18        THE COURT:

19                    What about the trees, are the trees the

20                    same?

21        MR. OSER:

22                    I think the gentleman could also testify

23                    to that, Your Honor.

24        THE COURT:

25                    What is your next one?  Let us give them

Page 16

1                      a number.  That one will be --

2          MR. OSER:

3                      This is S-34.

4          THE COURT:

5                      The other one will be what?

6          MR. OSER:

7                      S-35, Your Honor.

8          THE COURT:

9                      Tell us what that is supposed to be.

10        MR. OSER:

11                    It is the survey plat made by

12                    Mr. Robert West, drawn by him for

13                    the FBI, for the Federal Government

14                    on May 31, 1964.

15        THE COURT:

16                    What year?

17        MR. OSER:

18                    May 31, 1964 it is certified to, and I

19                    think Mr. West will testify in his

20                    opinion it actually represents what

21                    the land and topographical area was

22                    on November 22, 1963.

23        THE COURT:

24                    What is your next exhibit?

25        MR. OSER:

Page 17

1                      A scale model, which the State marks as

2                      S-36 for the purpose of identifica-

3                      tion, purporting to be representative

4                      of the area known as Dealey Plaza.

5          MR. DYMOND:

6                      I thought we were told that was not a

7                      scale model.

8          MR. OSER:

9                      You are right, not a scale model, a

10                    markup.  The State is not alleging

11                    it is to scale.

12        THE COURT:

13                    Who prepared it?

14        MR. OSER:

15                    It was prepared by CBS.

16        THE COURT:

17                    Who is going to identify it as being a

18                    true picture of the scene on

19                    November 22, 1963?

20        MR. OSER:

21                    Mr. West can identify it, and

22                    Mr. Zapruder can testify this

23                    represents the streets and the

24                    buildings and area known as Dealey

25                    Plaza.

Page 18

1          MR. DYMOND:

2                      Unless it is to scale we are going to

3                      object because it can very easily

4                      present a distorted picture.

5          THE COURT:

6                      They don’t offer it as a scale model.

7                      They offer it to portray the scene

8                      but not a scale model.

9                      How are you going to have

10                    Mr. Zapruder testify as to Exhibits

11                    34, 35 and 36, unless you get them

12                    in evidence?

13        MR. OSER:

14                    I would ask then that we call Mr. West

15                    at this time.

16        THE COURT:

17                    That’s what I would suggest.  You may

18                    step down, Mr. Zapruder.

19        MR. DYMOND:

20                    We object to these exhibits being seen

21                    by the Jury until they are received.

22            (WITNESS EXCUSED.)

23        THE COURT:

24                    I would suggest we call Mr. West and put

25                    him under oath out of the presence

Page 19

1                      of the Jury and go through his

2                      testimony.  If you have no objection

3                      you can do it all over again in the

4                      presence of the Jury.

5             ...oOo...

6             ROBERT WEST,

7          after first being duly sworn, was examined and

8            testified on his oath as follows:

9          THE COURT:

10                    Would you be kind enough to spell your

11                    name?

12        THE WITNESS:

13                    Robert H. West, W-E-S-T.

14        THE COURT:

15                    You may proceed.

16             DIRECT EXAMINATION

17        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

18        Q            What is your occupation, sir?

19        A            I am a land surveyor, the County Surveyor for

20                    Dallas County.

21        Q            Would you briefly tell the Court the nature

22                    of your duties as surveyor for Dallas

23                    County, Dallas, Texas?

24        A            Basically keeping the survey records, the

25                    land survey records of the County, making

Page 20

1                      them available to the public and so

2                      forth.

3          Q            Do your duties include any on-the-scene survey

4                      work?

5          A            In my official capacity as County Surveyor

6                      very, very rarely.  The County Surveyor’s

7                      Office is mainly in the surveying of

8                      public bond domain, of which there is

9                      very little left in Dallas County.

10        Q            Relative to other aspects of your occupation,

11                    do you do on-the-scene survey work?

12        A            Yes, sir.

13        MR. SCIAMBRA:

14                    At this time the State would attempt to

15                    qualify this witness as an expert

16                    surveyor and therefore qualified to

17                    give his expert opinion relative to

18                    the topographical aspects of Dealey

19                    Plaza in Dallas, Texas.

20        THE COURT:

21                    Does the Defense wish to traverse

22                    Mr. West on the proposition of his

23                    being an expert?

24        MR. DYMOND:

25                    Just a few questions.

Page 21

1          BY MR. DYMOND:

2          Q            Mr. West, what is --

3                      MR. SCIAMBRA:

4                      I haven’t questioned him yet.  I haven’t

5                      brought out his qualifications yet.

6          THE COURT:

7                      You may proceed to do so.

8          BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

9          Q            How long have you been County Surveyor for

10                    the County of Dallas, Texas?

11        A            Since 1944.

12        Q            What training have you had, whether in some

13                    institution or whether in an apprentice

14                    type of situation?

15        A            The basic training was with my father who was

16                    County Surveyor from 1904 until 1944, at

17                    which time I assisted him.  I also,

18                    during that period, attended A&M

19                    College and Southern Methodist University

20                    taking civil engineering.

21        Q            At what age did you begin to receive your

22                    training under the tutorship of your

23                    father?

24        A            When I was 12, 13 years old he started taking

25                    me to the field to help him make these

Page 22

1                      land surveys.

2          Q            Have you ever been qualified as an expert

3                      surveyor in any courts?

4          A            Yes, sir.

5          Q            Approximately how many courts have you been

6                      qualified as an expert in?

7          A            All the courts in Dallas County.  The County

8                      Courts, the District Courts and the

9                      Federal Courts.

10        THE COURT:

11                    Mr. Alcock, I would suggest you tender

12                    Mr. West for traverse by the

13                    Defense.

14        MR. ALCOCK:

15                    The State will tender him.

16        BY MR. DYMOND:

17        Q            Mr. West, is there such a thing as a

18                    topographical surveyor?

19        A            One who does nothing but topographical work?

20        Q            Topographical work, yes.

21        A            There are, but I don’t know of any personally.

22        Q            Do all surveyors do topographical work?

23        A            All the land surveyors should be able to do

24                    topographical work.

25        Q            Do you do topographical work, sir?

Page 23

1          A            Yes, sir.

2          Q            Did you graduate in civil engineering?

3          A            No, sir.

4                      MR. DYMOND:

5                      That is all, sir.

6                      THE COURT:

7                      Mr. Dymond, does the Defense wish to put

8                      any witness on the traverse as to the

9                      expertise of the witness Mr. West

10                    being an expert in this field?

11        MR. DYMOND:

12                    No, we don’t wish to do that.

13        THE COURT:

14                    Is the matter submitted?

15        MR. SCIAMBRA:

16                    It is submitted by the State.

17        THE COURT:

18                    I will rule that Mr. West by training,

19                    experience and study is an expert

20                    in this field and can give his

21                    opinion as to the landmarks in

22                    Dallas County, Dallas, Texas on

23                    November 22, 1963.

24        BY MR. SCIAMBRA:

25        Q            Did you have occasion during the course of

Page 24

1                      your duties to survey and draw a survey

2                      plat for the Federal Bureau of

3                      Investigation relative to Dealey Plaza?

4          A            Yes, sir.

5          Q            Do you see that survey or reproduction of it

6                      in court today?

7          A            I think it is on the easel over there on the

8                      left.

9          Q            Is this survey drawn to scale, and if so, what

10                    scale?

11        A            Yes, sir.  The scale is noted on the plat.

12                    The large portion of the map is drawn to

13                    the scale of one inch equal to twenty

14                    feet.  The other portion, which has to do

15                    with vertical control --

16        Q            Let me ask you this, Mr. West: Is this a

17                    complete survey of Dealey Plaza?

18        A            No, sir.

19        Q            In what respects is it incomplete?

20        A            It is not complete, it does not show all of

21                    the topographical features within this

22                    particular quadrant of Dealey Plaza.

23        Q            Is there any particular reason why it does

24                    not show this?

25        A            This is what was required by an FBI agent.

Page 25

1                      This is what he instructed me to survey

2                      and to plat.

3          Q            Particularly relative to the location of the

4                      street and what is referred to as a

5                      wooden stockade, and the location of the

6                      other landmarks which are on this plat,

7                      are they in the same location as they

8                      were in on November 23, 1963?

9          A            I cannot testify to the location of the sign

10                    as being in the exact position.

11        Q            Are these signs clearly marked on the plat?

12        A            Yes, sir.

13        Q            Relative to the other aspects of this plat,

14                    can you testify to them?

15        A            All of the aspects on the plat to the best of

16                    my knowledge are the same.

17        Q            As they were on the 22nd of November?

18        A            Right.

19        Q            When was this plat made, if you know?

20        A            I can’t see the date.  It is on the map there.

21        Q            Is there a date on the plat?

22        A            Yes, sir.

23        Q            Would you please step down and walk over to

24                    the plat?

25        A            April 31, 1964.

Page 26

1          Q            Is your name on the plat?

2          A            My name is printed on the map and also my

3                      signature is on the map.

4          Q            Are there any seals on the plat?

5          A            There is a seal of the Public Surveyor’s

6                      Office.

7          Q            Was this seal placed on the plat by you?

8          A            Yes, sir.

9          Q            Mr. West, I direct your attention to what the

10                    State has previously marked as S-34, which

11                    purports to be an aerial photograph, and

12                    I ask you whether or not you can tell

13                    the Court of what this is a photograph?

14                    If you cannot see it plainly you can step

15                    over here.

16        A            I believe I can see it.  It is a photograph of

17                    part of Dealey Plaza at the intersection

18                    of Houston, Elm, Main and Commerce in

19                    Dallas.

20        Q            I request you get up from your witness chair

21                    and inspect this photograph very carefully,

22                    please.  Would you come over here and

23                    inspect it?

24        A            All right.

25        Q            You may return to your seat.  Mr. West, you

Page 27

1                      have inspected what purports to be an

2                      aerial photograph of Dealey Plaza, is

3                      that correct, sir?

4          A            Yes.

5          Q            To the best of your knowledge are the

6                      buildings, streets and various landmarks,

7                      including the trees that are depicted in

8                      this photograph, in the same location and

9                      position as they were in on November 22,

10                    1963?

11        A            Yes, sir.

12        Q            Are the objects which are depicted in this

13                    map, in this photograph, in the same

14                    location as the objects which are

15                    depicted in your plat, as far as it

16                    goes?

17        A            The same relative location of streets,

18                    buildings and so forth.

19        Q            Mr. West, I would ask you to please step down

20                    and inspect what has been previously

21                    marked as S-36.

22        A            All right.

23        Q            Please return to your seat.  Mr. West, you

24                    have inspected what has been marked as

25                    S-36, is that correct, sir?

Page 28

1          A            Yes, sir.

2          Q            Do you recognize this as being any particular

3                      location?

4          A            Well, it is basically the same area as covered

5                      in the photograph.  Commerce, Main, Elm

6                      and Houston Streets, showing the court-

7                      house and the jail and so forth.

8          Q            As a result of your inspection were you able to

9                      determine any errors which might be

10                    represented here as opposed to the actual

11                    scene in Dallas, Texas?

12        A            That covers such a multitude of things I don’t

13                    know that I could answer that question.

14        Q            Are there any major errors?

15        A            I don’t see any major errors.

16        Q            Are there any buildings on here which are not

17                    in Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas?

18        A            No.

19        Q            Are there any streets on here which are not

20                    in Dealey Plaza in Dallas, Texas?

21        A            No, sir.

22        Q            Where is your office located in Dallas,

23                    Mr. West?

24        A            At the date of this survey it was located on

25                    the first floor of the northwest corner

Page 29

1                      of the old courthouse at the corner of

2                      Main and Houston.

3          Q            Is the old courthouse depicted in this aerial

4                      photograph?

5          A            Yes, sir, it is in the lower right-hand corner.

6          Q            Were you present in Dealey Plaza at approxi-

7                      mately noon on November 22, 1963?

8          A            Yes, sir.

9          Q            Therefore in your expert opinion the two

10                    exhibits, S-30 and S-36, do they fairly

11                    represent the area as it was on that date,

12                    is that right?

13        A            Right.

14        Q            More specifically, the markup which the State

15                    does allege is not to scale, and you have

16                    noticed there are some minor mistakes, is

17                    that right?

18        A            Right.

19        Q            But there are no buildings, streets or major

20                    obstacles which are located out of

21                    position, is that right?

22        A            Right.

23        THE COURT:

24                    Mr. Dymond, Mr. Wegmann and Mr. Wegmann,

25                    do you wish to traverse on these

Page 30

1                      exhibits?

2          MR. DYMOND:

3                      Yes, I do.

4          THE COURT:

5                      You may do it.

6          BY MR. DYMOND:

7          Q            Mr. West, I have particular reference to what

8                      has been termed a markup, that is this

9                      model here before me.  You stated on

10                    Direct Examination there are some minor

11                    mistakes on it.  Would you mind coming

12                    down here and point them out to us,

13                    these minor mistakes?

14        A            Basically what I intended to say was that the

15                    markup covers such a large area that it

16                    would be impossible for me to check out

17                    every minute detail as to scale, location

18                    of trees, location of traffic strips,

19                    et cetera, that are on this model.  I

20                    couldn’t say whether they are in the

21                    correct position or not.

22        Q            Mr. West, the markup doesn’t purport to be a

23                    scale markup, so errors as to scale would

24                    not be relevant here.  Can you point out

25                    other errors, other than scale errors.

Page 31

1                      that might exist?

2          A            I would have to examine it again to pick out

3                      any big errors such as that.

4          Q            You are free to examine it if you wish to,

5                      Mr. West.

6          A            Basically the model doesn’t indicate the

7                      concrete wall or fence along the west

8                      side of the area that leads across

9                      Houston Street from the Criminal Court and

10                    jail building between the lagoon and Elm

11                    Street.

12        THE COURT:

13                    The Court Reporter has to get this down,

14                    so will you speak louder, please.

15        THE WITNESS:

16                    (Continuing) There is a concrete wall

17                    that runs along the west side of the

18                    lagoon, west of Houston Street.

19                    It is terribly difficult here to say

20                    what is missing in a model of this

21                    type.  For example, the storm sewer

22                    inlets are not shown on Elm, Main or

23                    Commerce.

24        THE COURT:

25                    I cannot hear you.

Page 32

1          THE WITNESS:

2                      (Continuing) The storm sewers are not

3                      shown on Main, Elm or Commerce.  The

4                      highway sign shown here, I couldn’t

5                      say it is in the correct position.

6                      Basically that’s about all.

7          BY MR. DYMOND:

8          Q            You may return to the stand.  Mr. West, would

9                      you be able to testify as to whether this

10                    markup contains the same number of trees

11                    in the same locations and of approximately

12                    the same relative size as those that were

13                    in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963?

14        A            No, sir.

15        Q            You could not?

16        A            No, sir.

17        Q            Mr. West, I refer to a building here, and ask

18                    you what building this represents?

19        A            This is the Criminal Courts Building.

20        Q            Where would the Records Building be in relation

21                    to this Criminal Courts Building?

22        A            Immediately behind it or east of it.

23        Q            Back this way?

24        A            Right.

25        Q            When was the Records Building built?

Page 33

1          A            To the best of my knowledge along in the 1920's.

2          Q            When was the new Criminal Courts Building built?

3          A            The late ‘40's.

4          Q            Is it not a fact that facing this markup over

5                      in this left area are the railroad tracks,

6                      that there is a railroad observation

7                      tower with a big plate glass window in the

8                      front of it permitting open view into what

9                      has been termed the grassy knoll area?

10        A            There is a tower and it has, I am sure, a view

11                    of the railroad.  I have never been up

12                    there so I couldn’t say what the view is.

13        THE COURT:

14                    Could you find in the aerial photograph

15                    that of which you are speaking?

16        MR. DYMOND:

17                    In order to enlighten you as to what I

18                    am speaking of, Mr. West, I am

19                    pointing my finger to the building

20                    to which I have reference on

21                    State-34.

22        THE COURT:

23                    Why don’t you step down, sir.  I have a

24                    magnifying glass here if you want

25                    it.

Page 34

1          MR. DYMOND:

2                      I don’t believe so, Your Honor.

3          THE WITNESS:

4                      Yes, I can see it.

5          BY MR. DYMOND:

6          Q            Such a  building does exist and did exist on

7                      November 22, 1963?

8          A            Yes.

9          Q            Is that building represented on this markup at

10                    all?

11        A            I don’t believe so.

12        Q            Now, with respect to the large exhibit over

13                    here, Mr. West, which has been marked for

14                    identification as State-35, is such a

15                    building represented on this survey?

16        A            No, sir.

17        Q            Is there anything on this survey which would

18                    indicate the number and the size and the

19                    location of trees in this area?

20        A            There are several trees shown.  The size, no.

21                    You mean the diameter of the trunk of

22                    the tree?

23        Q            And the height of the trunk of the tree.

24        A            We didn’t attempt to show the diameter or

25                    height of any trees.

Page 35

1          Q            Would you call this, sir, a topographical

2                      survey or not?

3          A            Within its limits.

4          Q            Within what limits?

5          A            Within the limits that were indicated to me by

6                      the FBI, that this was the information

7                      that they wanted to be shown on this map.

8                      Within those limits it is a topographical

9                      map.

10        Q            Do those limits coincide with your definition

11                    of a topographical survey?

12        A            Within those limits, yes, sir.

13        Q            I am talking about your general definition and

14                    knowledge of the term ‘topographical

15                    survey’.

16        A            For example, the information shown at Houston

17                    Street beginning at Main and running

18                    northerly along Elm Street and beginning

19                    at Houston and running westerly to the

20                    triple underpass, that in my opinion is a

21                    true topographical map showing all the

22