By Rick Holtman on Monday, January 31, 2000 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Reviews of Dale Myers' book, With Malice: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Murder of Officer J.D. Tippit, point out that he tells us more about the shooting than we want to know. I was more interested in what he omits, such as how Oswald got from his rooming house to 10th and Patton in time for the murder.

Earlene Roberts, the only witness, testified that Oswald arrived at his rooming house at "1pm or a little later", stayed in his room for "3 to 4 minutes", and that she last saw him standing at the bus stop out front. This places Oswald stationary at 1026 N. Beckley at no earlier than 1:05 pm.

How long would it have taken Oswald to reach the corner of 10th and patton on foot? I was in Dallas a while back and had an opportunity to take this infamous walk myself. I first tried the route described in the Warren Report, which is south on Beckley to Davis, east to Crawford, south to 10th, and then east alont 10th to just past Patton, where the shooting occurred. Walking at a healthy clip and carrying a stopwatch and a pedometer, I measured it at slightly under 1.2 miles and took 16 1/2 minutes. The Warren Report measured it at "about .9 miles" (only as the crow flies) and stated "if Oswald had left his rooming house shortly after 1 pm and walked at a brisk pace, he would have reached 10th and Patton shortly after 1:15 pm. Considering this, and studying a map,I vowed to do better. Oswald was no jock, and I'm in pretty good shape, and I was determined to match his time. As there were no witnesses to the route Oswald took, I next tried Patton straight northwest to Davis, then west to Beckley and north to my starting point, dodging traffic lights and jaywalking all the way. I managed to cut my time to 14 1/2 minutes and the distance to 1.1 miles, but I still would have missed the shooting by at least 5 minutes. Before the day was through, I tried two more round trips, drawing a lot of stares along the heavily populated route. I was not able to better my time without running and I'm certain that if Oswald would have ran this route on that day of alertness and suspicions he would have drawn a lot of attention, as he did around the Texas Theater.

Mr. Myers places the time of the shooting at 1:14:30, which is probably too late anyway, since one of the principle witnesses (Helen Markham) was on her way to catch a 1:12 pm bus when the shooting occurred. Mr. Myers explains that we all know that buses run late therefore the witness would have had no reason to be to her bus stop on time. Interesting reasoning.

Next Mr. Myers has our track star (Oswald) spotted well beyond 10th and Patton by a witness (Jimmy Burt at 10th and Denver) who said Oswald was walking west on 10th from the direction of Marsalis Avenue. Denver is a block west of Patton and Marsalis is a block west of that. This would require Oswald to circle a couple of blocks past the shooting scene and be spotted on the way back at least a minute or so before the shooting. I am certain from my own experiences that this was not possible. In Mr. Myers scenario Oswald would have missed the murder of J.D. Tippit by at least ten , and probably more like fifteen, minutes.

While I am grateful to Dale Myers for the wealth of original documents and photographs contained in his book, I am less than impressed by his deductions and conclusions in a number of areas. The point may not be whether Lee Oswald shot J.D. Tippit, but who drove him there if he did.

By Daniel Bolton (Chambers) on Friday, April 21, 2000 - 10:09 pm: Edit

It seems a little strange to me that LHO was the prime suspect in both the Kennedy and Tippit shootings, but skeptics don't think he did either one. I'm unsure if he was firing from the depository(he definitely wasn't the only shooter if he was)but I have a hard time dismissing witness accounts that saw him shoot Tippit. We know that he was in the area of both shootings. Is that just a coincidence? He was identified as a suspect in both. Is that just a coincidence? As for the timing thing, people get times mixed up, it's only natural. Not everyone knows exactly what time everything happened right on the button. I think he shot Tippit. I think he was afraid and on the run because: A> He either shot Kennedy or B> knew he was being set up. I mean think about it > he pulled a gun on officers at the Texas theatre when they caught up with him. He was definitely capable of it. I'm just trying to say, don't find him innocent of EVERYTHING. My question is, when he left his boarding house > where was he going?
I think the events of shooting Tippit, and being on the run led him to hide out in the theatre. But what if he hadn't encountered Tippit? Where was his destination? Also, he had money in his pocket, but he didn't buy a movie ticket, he just walked right in, which led to the ticket guy calling the cops > atleast that was my understanding.

By ken burns (Letitbe) on Saturday, April 22, 2000 - 10:33 am: Edit

im new here hopefully i`ll fit in both authors of the tippitt posting seem very knowledgeable and i have a few question i`d like to throw at them.1)why did a police car stop in front of oswalds house and honk the horn? speculation could it have been tippitt, would this explain how oswald reached the scene of the tippitt murder.Tippitt was he alone this day, the woman at the boarding house saw 2 people in the police car who was the other person, did witness(es )see 2 people fleeing the tippitt murder scene.
2) who exactly was tippitt? speculation? there is a record store in that area an employee who was on duty at that time remembers some unusual events. a)oswald was there that morning earlier buying a concert ticket.there is also reports saying tippitt was in the store at the same time as oswald.the employee also remembers that tippitt worked at bar-strip club and had a fancy for a dancer who worked for jack ruby.speculation maybe tippitt played a role in the plot, maybe he was hired to silence oswald or get him to safety,maybe he was double crossed.
3)did tippitt misreport something that day,shortly after the president is shot tippitt is asked his whereabouts and eta. he reports he is in his district 15 -20 minutes away.now supposedly there are 5 or 6 witnesses who see Tippitt a lot closer to the scene sitting by a garage stopped for 10 minutes or so, then takes off like a bat out of hell towards the crime scene giving the appearance he was where he reported being.also that day at 12:20 a woman reports of a possible break in tippitts district at 12:23 he reports he checked it out clear.speculation this could of been an alibi to place tippitt away from the jfk scene if he did have a role in it.now when tippitt gets to the area after the assassanation he stops at the record store uses the phone ( he`s in a rush ) apparently doesnt talk to anyone but is on the phone long enough for it to ring 7 or 8 times.could this have been a signal or was he given information.he then takes off in a hurry from the record store cuts off traffic turning right down a side road where he meets his killer.who was he calling? how did he know where to turn? was it coincidence, seems it did`nt take him to long to find oswald.

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Saturday, April 22, 2000 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Ken~ Here is some food for thought..the "investigation" of the Tippit homocide was a shabby thing to consider.We have no information on where the body was in relation to his prowler, nor do we get an indication of it from extant photos.His body was not outlined for subsequent photographs.The "search" of the neighborhood turned up evidence that civilians found, and many people were not even contacted.Bullet hulls handed over to investigators disappeared.The bullets found in Tippits body do not evenly match the bullets from Oswalds' pistol(the one with a faulty firing pin).The FBI claimed that since LHOs'revolver had been rechambered to take .38 cal. ammo,the barrel was oversize for the bullet,causing inconsistant ballistics.Thus,..."consecutive bullets fired from the revolver by the FBI,could not even be identified with each other under the microscope."stated by the Commission in an appendix to it's report.Oddly, tests done on similar rechambered pistols do have identifiable lands and grooves. Not only that, but the four shells found at the scene were 2(two)western .38 specials and 2 (two) Remington Peters .38 specials. The bullets found in Tippit's body were 3 (three) of one type and 1 (one) of another....

By Anders (Anders) on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 08:07 am: Edit

Bryce,

>>The bullets found in Tippits body do not evenly match the bullets from Oswalds' pistol(the one with a faulty firing pin). The FBI claimed that since LHOs'revolver had been rechambered to take .38 cal. ammo,the barrel was oversize for the bullet,causing inconsistant ballistics.Thus,..."consecutive bullets fired from the revolver by the FBI,could not even be identified with each other under the microscope."stated by the Commission in an appendix to it's report.Oddly, tests done on similar rechambered pistols do have identifiable lands and grooves.>>

The FBI was unable to positively state that the bullets recovered in Tippit were fired from Oswald´s revolver to the exclusion of all other weapons. However, they did find similarities with Oswald´s revolver. And on the other hand, the result of the tests does not mean that Oswald´s revolver can be eliminated as the one responsible for Tippit´s death.


>>Not only that, but the four shells found at the scene were 2(two)western .38 specials and 2 (two) Remington Peters .38 specials. The bullets found in Tippit's body were 3 (three) of one type and 1 (one) of another....>>

But ever thought about how many shots that were really fired? There are lots of discrepencies in how many shots the earwitnesses heard. The Davis sisters thought they heard two shots. Benavides claimed to have heard three shots, Markham two (initially), Kinneth and Austin two or three shots. The rest thought from three to six shots. However, Callaway, with experience from WW2 and combat battles, tought he heard five shots. To the contrary with other witnesses, Callaway is one of the few Tippit witnesses that has been consistent in his testimony.
There are also witnesses - Lewis, Russel and Patterson - that claimed to have seen the gunman eject cartridges in an area some distance, near the corner of Jefferson, from where the four shells were found.
So what happened, if it were such, to the 5th shell? It isn´t impossible that it was taken by a citizen as a souvenir, since considering it all four of the recovered hulls were pointed out by citizens.
Barbara Davis claimed that she found a shell among the possession of her father-in-law like the ones she and her sister had found after the Tippit murder. He had mentioned a short time after the murder that he had found a shell. However, the father-in-law died more than 25 years ago and the shell has been misplaced. (With Malice, p. 272)

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Anders~ As long as you want to use evidence that isn't available, we will dance around this issue forever.As long as were talking about eyewitness testimony, why not mention that many witnesses in Dealy heard as many as 6 shots?Because many did.You can't have it both ways.If you want to allow the witnesses to the Tippit slaying to say they heard more than four shots, then you have to allow the Dealy witnesses who heard more than three their say too....

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Anders~ On your point about Oswalds' revolver-If it cannot be matched to the evidentiary bullets, then it must be excluded.It cannot be used as evidence.This is what is called in our adversarial system as REASONABLE DOUBT. Much about this case is disturbing to many people, and the ballistics evidence is one area of particular concern.From the rifle that they could not adequately tie to Oswald (except through an alias and P.O. box) to the pistol from which they could not match ammo, not to mention all the fragmentary ballistics, and the star of the production, CE399, better known as the "Magic" or pristine bullet.(If you will recall, Poe could not identify even the shell casings from the Tippit slaying when shown them months later.They were missing his initials,an important link in the evidentiary chain.)Granted , Oswalds' prints were found on the disassambled rifle.The prints, according to DPD were WEEKS old, and useless as evidence.Nitrate tests PROVED that Oswald could NOT have fired a rifle on the day in question.Not only that, but the DPD never even checked to see if the rifle had been fired on that day.This case , had it gone to court, would have been thrown out due to the gross negligence of the DPD and the District attornys' office.Much of the evidence had no credible chain of possession, and any competent defense attorney would have shot the prosecutions case full of holes.

By Anders (Anders) on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 07:24 pm: Edit

Bryce,

>>As long as you want to use evidence that isn't available, we will dance around this issue forever.>>

I´m very surprised YOU are interested in evidence...

>>As long as were talking about eyewitness testimony, why not mention that many witnesses in Dealy heard as many as 6 shots?Because many did.You can't have it both ways.>>

"Many"???? Only 8.7% heard four or more shots. 76.7% heard three shots. (See HCSA Volume 2) What you mean by "many" is a mystery...

>>If you want to allow the witnesses to the Tippit slaying to say they heard more than four shots, then you have to allow the Dealy witnesses who heard more than three their say too>>

Unlike at DP, all witnesses at the Tippit scene saw the killer.

>>On your point about Oswalds' revolver-If it cannot be matched to the evidentiary bullets, then it must be excluded.>>

You are wrong again. There were similarities as well with Oswald´s revolver. They weren´t able to FULLY establish the revolver was the one to exclusion of all other; the tests weren´t enough.

>>From the rifle that they could not adequately tie to Oswald (except through an alias and P.O. box)>>

Also the fingerprints, and the ownership of it.

>>to the pistol from which they could not match ammo>>

However, the SHELLS recovered matched Oswald´s revolver to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.

>>not to mention all the fragmentary ballistics, and the star of the production, CE399, better known as the "Magic" or pristine bullet.>>

It has been established to have come from the Carcano in exclusion of all other weapons in the world through neutron tests.

>>(If you will recall, Poe could not identify even the shell casings from the Tippit slaying when shown them months later.They were missing his initials,an important link in the evidentiary chain.)>>

There were so many marks made inside the hull it was impossible to tell. However, in the end, Poe DID identify the shells as the one he had handled to Barnes. Barnes, who also had make a mark on the hulls, identified the two shells as the ones given to him by Poe.
In a 1996 interview, Poe said, "There were so many scratches in there you couldn´t tell". (With Malice, p. 261)
In fact, after Poe and Barnes had put their marks, the Crime Scene Search Section put theirs, then the FBI, then the lab.
Examining the inside of the hull there is black gunpowder covering the surface. The markings made are darker and are difficult to read with the naked eye. Further, it seems that the ones who made markings inside the hull had a hard time making them on a curved surface due to the minimal access of space inside it.
Go to the National Archives and see for yourself.

>>Nitrate tests PROVED that Oswald could NOT have fired a rifle on the day in question.>>

Since the chemicals used in the test also reacts to nitrates in urine, cosmetics, tobacco, fertilizers, kitchen matches and many other common items it is NOT reliable.

>>Not only that, but the DPD never even checked to see if the rifle had been fired on that day.>>

The shells at the sniper´s nest, on the other hand, were identified as beeing fired from the Carcano in exclusion of all other weapons in the world.

>>This case , had it gone to court, would have been thrown out due to the gross negligence of the DPD and the District attornys' office.Much of the evidence had no credible chain of possession, and any competent defense attorney would have shot the prosecutions case full of holes.>>

Only if you don´t want to dig further into every issue.
It would indeed have been a clear cut case; an assumption not many critics like. They claim the big monster conspiracy also included the whole DPD, consequently the most corrupt police department at that time...

By Jeff Bumpus (Jeff) on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Now where did he say anything about the DPD in the conspiracy?Where did he say anything about Monster conspiracy?"It would have been a clear cut case" ..of railroading."I'm surprised YOU are interested in evidence"I think you owe the man an apology.You were the one who changed the subject from the two Western and two Remington shells and went off on a tangent about how many shots were fired.Then you claim you are "surprised YOU are interested in evidence"(Tues April 25 5:07am)

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 01:06 am: Edit

Anders~"I´m very surprised YOU are interested in evidence..."Why might you be surprised at that? I have provided evidence of everything that I have posted. If I have said anything that wasn't strictly backed by testimony or evidence, I have preceeded those remarks by saying "I believe" or "in my opinion".You on the other hand seem to feel it is alright to make personal attacks without any evidentiary backup.Your tactic is to divert attention from the question and attack the poster without benefit of any facts.I am weary of answering your posts point by point, because you refuse to do the same.You selectively take quotes out of context and then I am left with making my argument all over again, as others here can attest to.If you want to debate, that is fine by me.Just do not "bait".I refuse to rise to that tactic any longer.

By Clint Bradford (Admin) on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 01:34 am: Edit

Please keep cool and calm. Neither "Anders" or anyone else here has it "in" for anyone personally.

Please stick to issues! Take deep breaths...go to another site - or even, gawd forbid - log off before replying.

I am VERY pleased that you folks have stuck to ISSUES and not PERSONALITIES. Keep up the excellent work!

- Clint

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 01:41 am: Edit

Clint~ As usual, you have the coolest head in the bunch.Again, Thank You for a forum in which we can discuss the issues surrounding this event.

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 08:06 pm: Edit

It's really hard not to have some doubts about the Dallas law enforcement community and their actions that weekend.
-There must have been a hundred cops in and around Dealey Plaza. The shots lasted eight to ten seconds. The shooters walked away.
-At Tenth and Patton the ambulance came and went and the witnesses were playing around with the gun before the cops got there, plus the witnesses found the ballistics evidence, some of it after the cops left.
-Around seventy-five of Dallas's finest watched Jack Ruby kill their prisoner, and allowed the press to broadcast it live.

It is a bit easier to to see sinister purposes in DPD's actions because it is hard to imagine that they were really that bad.

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Friday, April 28, 2000 - 01:24 am: Edit

Rick~The DPD was to law enforcement as Deputy Dawg was to law enforcement.They handed over all of their evidence to the FBI, who had NO JURISTICTION, arrived at conclusions that even District Attorney Wade asked them to refrain from in front of the media, and lost the prime suspect on national TV.A bigger bunch of incompetents you could not invent....IF they were indeed incompetent.Perhaps they did their job after all...helping the real power behind the assassination to cover their ass? After all, Earl Cabell was the mayor(brother to the fired Gen.Cabell of CIA fame)of Dallas. Then LBJ appointed Allen Dulles, late of the CIA, to the Warren Commission.(Dulles was fired by JFK, if you will recall).And let's not forget the Big Oil cabal in Texas, who would not shed any tears over JFKs' assassination.The whole thing stinks like Fultons' Fish Market.

By Thomas Powell (Bayou69) on Wednesday, May 10, 2000 - 11:18 pm: Edit

I feel that the Tippit shooting may be the piece that puts the puzzle together,this death one of there own DPD,has never been looked into,you would think "They" would since it was a fellow officer,but putting Oswald there seems to be getting harder,witneses who say Oswald was there,witneses who say there were more than one person and Oswald was not there,the shooting, the manner of it seems to me almost a personal thing,amount of shots,not like someone who is running after killing a Pres.,then leave bullet shells at site of crime,not real smart,what was Tippit doing out of his patrol area,these answers could put us on the right path!

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Thursday, May 11, 2000 - 10:49 am: Edit

I agree. The Tippit killing has never made any sense to me. There have recently been a few dozen men released from death row because of DNA evidence. Eightyfive percent were convicted mostly because of incorrect witness testimony. Almost seventy percent of these cases involved multiple witnesses. From what I've read about the line-ups that weekend in Dallas, I suspect the police could have had anyone who even slightly resembled the gunman picked out. I also suspect that at the time of the Tippit murder Oswald was already in the theater.

By Anders (Anders) on Thursday, May 11, 2000 - 03:40 pm: Edit

powell,

there was one (1) person who claimed to have seen *two* men fleeing from the Tippit scene. This witness, however, was also farthest away from the scene. It seems strange then that this particular witness would be considered giving credible testimony when all the other witnesses - who were very close to the scene - only saw one gunman.

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Thursday, May 11, 2000 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Actually, you are wrong on several counts. Clemmons was less that a half block away and she described two men. Wright was about a half block away and he also described two men. Smith, Reynolds and several others were a full block or more away. I'm not saying that I think two men were involved, just that the scene was one of confusion and it is hard to figure out exactly what happened.

Every witness except Markham described the killer as walking toward the police car. Why did the WC and the HSCA conclude that the killer was walking away from the car? Because time was short and they knew Oswald had to be coming from the northwest to be the shooter. They had no way to explain how Oswald could have been coming from some undisclosed location to the east. Myers tried it and his timing doesn't work. So the easy thing was to ignore the witnesses and frame Oswald any way they could. Have you read Dale Myers' book? Did you ever wonder why he never even hinted about Oswald's route to the murder scene? He also had no idea how Lee could have been coming from the east. And yet he used this direction of travel to explain why Tippit supposedly stopped Oswald. Very sloppy research and analysis.

By Anders (Anders) on Friday, May 12, 2000 - 07:38 am: Edit

rick,

"confusion"? How do you explain that one person far away claims to have seen two gunmen while all the other witnesses claim to have seen only one?

>>Every witness except Markham described the killer as walking toward the police car.>>

Wrong. Markham claimed the suspect was walking east, that is not toward the police car, but away from it. Tatum also said this. Burt and Scoggins said the suspect was walking west, that is toward the police car.

>>Myers tried it and his timing doesn't work.>>

What´s your support for this?

>>Did you ever wonder why he never even hinted about Oswald's route to the murder scene? He also had no idea how Lee could have been coming from the east. And yet he used this direction of travel to explain why Tippit supposedly stopped Oswald. Very sloppy research and analysis.>>

I doubt you have read Myers´ book carefully. He explains why Tippit stopped Oswald by Oswald´s change of direction at the time Tippit turned onto Tenth.
Myers gives several options to what route Oswald could have taken. But since no one said to have seen him we can´t be 100 percent sure what exact streets etc. he went on. But we know he was at his rooming house approximately at 1:00 and showed up some 15 minutes later at the Tippit scene.

I would say very sloppy reading by you.

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Friday, May 12, 2000 - 11:22 am: Edit

Anders-

You have got to learn to read the posts before you respond to them. I am not going to repeat a post that is just above here because you failed to read it. For example, I said that every witness except Markham said the shooter was walking towards the car. You responded: Wrong. Markham said the guy was headed east. You just told me I was wrong and then repeated the same thing I said to prove me wrong. Learn to read my posts before responding.

I have read Myers' book three times so far. He asserts that the shooter was coming from the east but does not attempt to explain where he was coming from or how he got there. How could Oswald get to some point east of the killing in the ten minutes or so from the time he left his room? Don't bother reading Myers, you won't find it in there.

By Anders (Anders) on Friday, May 12, 2000 - 06:46 pm: Edit

rick,

>>You just told me I was wrong and then repeated the same thing I said to prove me wrong.>>

You *were* wrong. Tatum ALSO claimed the gunman was walking away from the police car.

>>He asserts that the shooter was coming from the east but does not attempt to explain where he was coming from or how he got there.>>

Read my message again. No one did see him. How would then Myers know what exact route Oswald took? On the contrary, I could ask all conspiracy authors why *they* don´t explain this.

>>How could Oswald get to some point east of the killing in the ten minutes or so from the time he left his room?>>

Actually it was more than ten minutes. Also, reconstructions have proved Oswald could easily have made it to the Tippit scene.

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Saturday, May 13, 2000 - 02:16 am: Edit

Anders~ "Also, reconstructions have proved Oswald could easily have made it to the Tippit scene." Which reconstruction are you referring to here?

By Anders (Anders) on Saturday, May 13, 2000 - 06:00 am: Edit

bryce,

see CE 1119-A, p. 158.

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Saturday, May 13, 2000 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Anders~ Can you provide an independant source for the reconstruction?Sorry, but I lack the faith that you have in the government case.You are referring to the Warren report here are you not?

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Saturday, May 13, 2000 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Anders-

Jack Tatum may or may not have been at the Tippit murder scene. He decided more than ten years later to tell a story that was at wide variance with all of the other witnesses. If you want to accept him as a valid witness, I guess you can. Does that mean I can use Burroughs and Davis, who corroberated each other that Oswald was in the theater at the time of the murder?

You are wrong again. Both Smith and Burt saw the shooter crossing Denver Street and approaching the murder scene fron the east. Where was he coming from? And, if it was Oswald, how did he get there?

Earlene Roberts stated that Oswald arrived a little after one pm and left about 3 or 4 minutes later, about 1:05. There was, by all the witnesses, several minutes delay before the call was made to the police at 1:16. How do you figure it was more that ten minutes? Are you going to randomly change the testimony, as Myers did, to fit your theory? You'll have to to make it work.

By Anders (Anders) on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 10:33 am: Edit

bryce,
how about walk nine tenth of a mile in 15 minutes; it´s more than enough time.

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 02:07 pm: Edit

I see. So you just ignore all of the testimony. I demonstrate that the evidence wont even allow ten minutes for the walk and you arbitrarily raise it to fifteen minutes. You have never actually read any of the testimony, have you anders?

By Clint Bradford (Admin) on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 03:07 pm: Edit

Anders and all:

Please go to the "Why MUST the WC Report be Supported?" thread.

Clint

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Anders~ I do walk 1 mile each day to my place of employment.I have walked this route many times, and each time, at a brisk pace.It takes me no less than 20 minutes to walk it.I suppose if I ran, I could make it 15 minutes.(Owing to heart condition, I am unable to run the route).Did you read Rick's post about running the route IN DALLAS?Go to first message on this thread and re-read it.

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Hello and I hope you all had a nice Mother's Day!

I just want to make a correction to a post I made a while back. I was checking through media records to find out the earliest time that news of the Tippit shooting was broadcast. Then as I was rereading the police radio logs I discovered a line that at 1:27 or 1:28 unit 85 called in that NBC news reported that an officer shot in the Oak Cliff area was DOA at the hospital. I can't find a record of this in NBC's records but there it is. Don't know how I missed it before and I apologize to the group. Apparently Brewer could have heard of the shooting when he said he did. Have a nice day!

By Anders (Anders) on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 06:43 pm: Edit

Rick,

>>Tatum...decided more than ten years later to tell a story that was at wide variance with all of the other witnesses.>>

Really? What "wide variance"?

>>Burroughs and Davis, who corroberated each other that Oswald was in the theater at the time of the murder?>>

What source for this?

>>You are wrong again. Both Smith and Burt saw the shooter crossing Denver Street and approaching the murder scene fron the east. Where was he coming from? And, if it was Oswald, how did he get there?>>

Only Burt saw the gunman walk pass across the street. He was walking west, supposedly coming from the east. Oswald got there supposedly by foot. But either you nor I can say for sure. What´s so mysterious with this?

>>Earlene Roberts stated that Oswald arrived a little after one pm and left about 3 or 4 minutes later, about 1:05.>>

Really? AROUND 1:00. At 12:50 he leaves the cab and starts his 5 minute walk to the rooming house.

>>There was, by all the witnesses, several minutes delay before the call was made to the police at 1:16. How do you figure it was more that ten minutes? Are you going to randomly change the testimony, as Myers did, to fit your theory? You'll have to to make it work.>>

What "change"? As Myers´ points out, it is evident that someone is trying to use the police radio, as someone is "pumping" the button. This is what Benavides told the WC, and that he failed to contact the dispatcher. This goes on for more than 90 seconds. He told the WC he stayed in the car a "few minutes" before trying to contact the police, but stated three years later it was shorter time. Then he told he waited until the gunman had got around the house and THEN he went out of the car some seconds later. Callaway first spotted the gunman 15 seconds after the shooting. He saw the gunman pass him approx. 45 seconds later. Then he ran to the Tippit scene and arrived there 30 seconds later. He then saw "four or five people" and a couple of cars that had stopped at the scene - these belonged to Tatum and Bowley. Bowley told the WC that Benavides had begun working on the radio at the time he arrived at the scene.
This means the shooting started at approx. 1:14:30.

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 04:54 pm: Edit

Anders-

Your faith in the unsubstantiated speculations of Dale Myers is understandable. Lets look at what the testimony actually shows.

The actual witnesses described a steady, even three or four shots. Tatum described three shots, then a pause as the gunman circled to the front of the car, then a final coup de grace that none of the other witnesses noticed, for some strange reason. If you want to accept his story and ignore the others, I guess you can. But why did he wait for over ten years to come forward?

The source for the statements of Burroughs and Davis is the recorded and videotaped testimony of Warren Burroughs and Jack Davis.

Burt and Smith were together when the shooter was supposed to have walked by. Burt swore that it was the gunman and he was approaching the scene from the east. Smith was not asked that I can find. I assumed that he agreed with Burt as he never contradicted him on any issue. Perhaps it is my error to assume that the witnesses were going to be consistant with each other. Benevides and Scoggins also stated that the gunman was coming from the east.

Where did the 12:50 cab drop-off time come from, and please do not say Myers, unless you have something to back it up? The WC says that Whaley dropped Oswald off at 12:54 and that he arrived at his room at 1:00 pm. Roberts said that Oswald arrived shortly after 1:00 and left three or four minutes later. Any way you look at it, at about 1:05 Oswald was standing at the bus stop in front of his place. If you want to invent evidence to give him an earlier start, as Myers did, then I guess you can. But I thought we were trying to base this on the evidence.

When did the shooting occur? Markham testified that she left the washateria, near the corner of Ninth and Patton, at 1:04. She was on her way to catch a 1:12 bus to get to work, the same bus she caught every day. She would have reached the corner of Tenth and Patton about 1:08 or 1:09. Bowley pulled up in his car after the gunman was long gone. He checked his watch and reported that it was 1:10. You can dispute this testimony, as Myers did, if you want to. But it is the only testimony regarding the time of the shooting that is in the record. To claim that Calloway raced to the scene a block away in 45 seconds is silly. He said no such thing. This is more of Myers inventing evidence to meet his favorite theory. The concensus of the testimony is that the shooting occured no later that 1:10.

But even if you want the shooting to happen at 1:14, Oswald did not have time to get there. I have practically jogged the route from Beckley to Tenth and Patton and it cannot be covered in less than 12 minutes without running or hitchhiking. The Warren re-enactments verified this. They gave Oswald 13 minutes to reach the scene. Unfortunately, they used the time of the radio call as the time of the shooting. The testimony demonstrates that this was not the case. To make Oswald your Tippit killer, you had better find him a ride. I'm sorry if you don't like the evidence.

By Anders (Anders) on Thursday, May 25, 2000 - 06:33 pm: Edit

Rick,

>>The actual witnesses described a steady, even three or four shots.>>

There are many contradictions in shots heard among the witnesses. Is this so strange? Eight thought they heard fewer than four shots. Yet Tippit was hit four times. The rest of the witnesses anywhere from three to six shots.

>>Tatum described three shots, then a pause as the gunman circled to the front of the car, then a final coup de grace that none of the other witnesses noticed, for some strange reason.>>

There is no "strange reason". Markham covered her head, Benavides was hiding in his truck and Scoggins was running away from the scene with the back against it.
As always with critics they see contradictions->then don´t dig into the issue->conclude it beeing mysterious.

>>If you want to accept his story and ignore the others, I guess you can. But why did he wait for over ten years to come forward?>>

As I know, the HSCA *located* him.

>>The source for the statements of Burroughs and Davis is the recorded and videotaped testimony of Warren Burroughs and Jack Davis.>>

When and by whom?

>>Burt swore that it was the gunman and he was approaching the scene from the east...Benevides and Scoggins also stated that the gunman was coming from the east.>>

I´m not questioning this.

>>Where did the 12:50 cab drop-off time come from, and please do not say Myers, unless you have something to back it up?>>

Whaley told the WC Oswald entered his cab close to 12:45, and that he dropped off Oswald at 12:45, but it appears to be too early, and Whaley admitted that might be wrong. (WC Volume II, p. 254) He repeated his taxi ride in five and a half minutes. (WV Volume VI, pp. 428-29, 434). That puts Oswald in Oak Cliff at approximately 12:51. Then to walk the distance to Oswald´s rooming house took a maximum of five minutes and 45 seconds (but he might have taken a short-cut since he knew the area). That means he arrived at the rooming house minutes before 1:00.
What we are discussing is a couple of minutes +/-. But it is clear that Oswald arrived at the rooming house before 1:00, and left some minutes later. That still gives him approximately 15 minutes to walk 9/10 of a mile.

The WC says that Whaley dropped Oswald off at 12:54 and that he arrived at his room at 1:00 pm. Roberts said that Oswald arrived shortly after 1:00 and left three or four minutes later. Any way you look at it, at about 1:05 Oswald was standing at the bus stop in front of his place. If you want to invent evidence to give him an earlier start, as Myers did, then I guess you can. But I thought we were trying to base this on the evidence.

>>When did the shooting occur? Markham testified that she left the washateria, near the corner of Ninth and Patton, at 1:04. She was on her way to catch a 1:12 bus to get to work, the same bus she caught every day. She would have reached the corner of Tenth and Patton about 1:08 or 1:09. Bowley pulled up in his car after the gunman was long gone. He checked his watch and reported that it was 1:10. You can dispute this testimony, as Myers did, if you want to. But it is the only testimony regarding the time of the shooting that is in the record.>>

There were about a dozen witnesses that identified Oswald as the gunman. He WAS there, simple as that. Then there gotta be an explanation to Markham´s testimony. There is, and Myers gives a good one.

>>she would have reached the corner of Tenth and Patton about 1:08 or 1:09. Bowley pulled up in his car after the gunman was long gone. He checked his watch and reported that it was 1:10.>>

So what does this tell you? That something is wrong in their testimonies concerning the time.
(one 1:08 or 1:09 and another long before 1:10)But not to conspiracy critics, who think that 100% of the witnesses are 100% accurate all the time.

>>To claim that Calloway raced to the scene a block away in 45 seconds is silly. He said no such thing. This is more of Myers inventing evidence to meet his favorite theory.>>

Is it? What Callaway said was that he in a "good hard run" reached the Tippit scene. That distance covered would take approximately 30 seconds. Callaway spotted the gunman ca. 15 seconds after the shooting. The gunman jogged south from Patton to Jefferson. This would have been accomplished within 45 seconds. That makes 90 seconds.

>>But even if you want the shooting to happen at 1:14, Oswald did not have time to get there. I have practically jogged the route from Beckley to Tenth and Patton and it cannot be covered in less than 12 minutes without running or hitchhiking.>>

Really? 15 minutes is more than enough time for 9/10 of a mile. This is not hard to accomplish.

>>Unfortunately, they used the time of the radio call as the time of the shooting. The testimony demonstrates that this was not the case. To make Oswald your Tippit killer, you had better find him a ride. I'm sorry if you don't like the evidence.>>

So what´s your opinion about the "bumping" sound on the radio, combined with the fact Benavides a numerous time unsuccessfully contacted the police?

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Friday, May 26, 2000 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Hi, Anders. Good to hear from you. I think you accused me of trying to understand the witnesses. I haven't been accused of that before. Please consider the following:

On November 20, Lee Oswald arrived for work at the depository at about 8:00 am. An hour later Lee Oswald was eating breakfast at the Dobbs House Restaurant in Oak Cliff. He created a fuss and was clearly identified by several employees. Plus he was a regular and they knew him. An hour later Lee Oswald was picked up a mile away at the Beckley Street entrance to the freeway while hitch hiking. He made it a point of introducing himself to the driver as Lee Harvey Oswald and was carrying a four foot package wrapped in brown paper. The driver, Ralph Yates, dropped Oswald off at Elm and Houston streets, in front of the depository. This was two days before the assassination.

That same day a package was mailed from Irving, Texas to Lee Oswald at 2515 W. 5th Street, Ruth Paine's address. It was not delivered because there was 12 cents postage due. The package, held at the post office and later opened by Inspector Harry Holmes, contained "a long brown bag opened at both ends", similar to the package discovered by the police near the sixth floor sniper's nest.

Lee Oswald spent the evening before the assassination at the Paine residence. Thirteen miles away, a young man knocked on the apartment door of an SMU professor at 223 S. Ewing. When he asked for Jack Ruby, Helen McIntosh directed the young man to Ruby's adjoining apartment. The following day, watching tv, Helen recognized the young man as Lee Oswald.

On November 22, Lee Oswald left for work about 7:30 am, arriving shortly before 8:00. He was seen by fellow employees continuously until at least noon. At 7:30 am, several miles away in Oak Cliff, Dub Stark arrived at his Top Ten Record Store to find Lee Oswald waiting for him. Stark reported that Lee bought a ticket to the Dick Clark Show and then returned a short time later to buy another ticket. At 9:30 am, with Lee hard at work at the depository, Lee Oswald entered the Jiffy store on Industrial Bvld., a mile from Houston and Elm. He brought two bottles of beer to the counter and was asked for identification. He produced a Texas drivers licence with the name Lee Oswald on it. The store clerk, Fred Moore, remembered the birth date as October, 1939.

All five witnesses who observed the man with the rifle on the sixth floor described his shirt as white or light-colored with a collar. Lee Oswald wore a darker, reddish-brown shirt to work that day.

Several minutes after the shooting, Mary Bledsoe saw Lee Oswald on a west bound bus and William Whaley gave him a cab ride to Oak Cliff shortly after that. About the same time, a highly decorated Dallas Police Officer watched Lee Oswald climb into a station wagon and leave Dealey Plaza. When he confronted Oswald about this later, Lee told him the station wagon belonged to Ruth Paine and she wasn't involved.

Earlene Roberts stated that Lee Oswald arrived at his rooming house at about 1:00 pm. He spent a few minutes in his room and was last seen at the corner bus stop wearing a light colored jacket and a brown shirt. At the same time (1:00 pm), wearing a white shirt and jacket, Lee Oswald was seen walking past the 10th Street Barber Shop, two blocks north of Jack Ruby's apartment. He passed the Town and Country Cafe, crossed Marsalis, and was last seen walking west toward 10th and Patton, several blocks away.

Accordind to two independant witnesses, Lee Oswald entered the Texas Theater shortly after 1:00 pm and went to the balcony. A few minutes later he came down, bought popcorn from Butch Burroughs, and entered the lower level of the theater. He moved around and sat next to several patrons, including Evangelist Jack Davis, and remained in the theater until he was arrested. At about the same time, just over a half mile away, Lee Oswald, wearing a white shirt and gray jacket (why do you suppose the DPD took his brown shirt and made him appear in the line-ups in his white t-shirt?), was observed by several witnesses shooting a Dallas Policeman and running away.

Police arrived at the Tippit murder scene and found a wallet left by the killer. FBI agent Robert Barret and DPD Captain W.R. Westbrook noted that it contained identification for Lee Oswald as well as other identification for Alek J. Hidell. Less than an hour later, Dallas Police removed a wallet from the pocket of Lee Oswald. Sargeant Gerald Hill and detectives Paul Bentley and Bob Carroll noted that it contained identification for Lee Oswald as well as other identification for Alek J. Hidell.

At around 1:55 pm, Lee Oswald was dragged out the front of the theater, placed in a squad car, and driven away. At about the same time Bernard Haire, Who owned Bernies Hobbie Shop next to the theater, went out the back door of his shop and into the alley. He saw the police take an unidentified white male out the rear door of the theater, place him in a squad car, and drive off. He described the man as 25 years of age, dark hair, and wearing a light-colored pull over shirt with dark pants. For years, Bernard Haire thought he had witnessed the arrest of Lee Oswald.

Lee Oswald arrived at police headquarters at about 2:00 pm. At the same time, back in Oak Cliff, Mr. T.F. White swa a car pull quickly into the El Chico parking lot, about six blocks north of the Texas Theater. The driver parked the car, a red Plymouth or Ford, in a fairly hidden position behind a large billboard sign. Curious, Mr. White walked across the street and approached the car. When White was within a few yards of the car, the driver looked directly at him and sped away. White got a good look at the driver and wrote down the licence number of the car. The plates were traced to a car owned by Carl Mathers, J.D. Tippit's best friend. Mr. White positively identified the driver as Lee Oswald.

At 1:00 am on November 23rd, Lee Oswald was arrigned for murder. Mary Lawrence was working the late shift at the Lucas B&B Restaurant. next door to Jack Ruby's Vegas Club. She was the head waitress and had known Ruby for eight years. Mary told the FBI she was certain she saw Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby together in her restaurant shortly after 1:00 am on November 23rd, at the same time Lee Oswald was in jail.

Under normal circumstances I would agree with your posts and that would be the end of it. I cannot prove to you that Lee Oswald did not shoot J.D. Tippit. But there is nothing ordinary about the circumstances of this case. Evidence and testimony that would appear obvious, should be questioned with an eye to the "coincidences' cited above. I am running this post so that you can perhaps understand why I must question that which appears so cut and dried to you. I'm simply not certain which "Lee Oswald" was identified by the witnesses at 10th and Patton.

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Saturday, May 27, 2000 - 02:58 am: Edit

Rick~ Nice post.I think you have made an important point here.Oswald seemed to have a split personality, and the Dallas sightings are not the only evidence of this.I believe that someone was building a legend for LHO to frame him up nicely.It worked quite well don't you think?

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Saturday, May 27, 2000 - 03:01 am: Edit

Anders~ Glad you are back!~ Go to the Lee Oswald genuine defector or intel plant? thread.There you will see testimony of LHO's intel connections.

By Anders (Anders) on Sunday, May 28, 2000 - 07:58 pm: Edit

Rick,

what´s your sources for all these allegations?
See, Bryce (regarding your comment), this is typical for you critics. You aren´t considering the source important or relevant; you are satisfied with it *sounding* "conspirational". This is true about lots of misinformation that has been created through the years.

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Sunday, May 28, 2000 - 11:21 pm: Edit

Anders~ Just what are you talking about? I posted testimony, SWORN testimony indicating Oswald was connected to US Intel and all you have to say is "See, Bryce (regarding your comment), this is typical for you critics. You aren´t considering the source important or relevant; you are satisfied with it *sounding* "conspirational"." Are you saying my source is irrelevant? How is this sworn testimony, given before a gov't. appointed commitee irrelevant? Because you disagree?Is that it? Since it dispels part or all of YOUR theory, you just dismiss eh?Maybe you should take a few more days leave from this posting area and consider carefully what the ramifications of your stance really mean.

By Anders (Anders) on Monday, May 29, 2000 - 08:12 am: Edit

Bryce,
take a look at your comments to Rick´s allegations about different sitings of Oswald. Believe it or not, it is ALL without given sources. You fully believe all these allegations by saying "Oswald seemed to have a split personality, and the Dallas sightings are not the only evidence of this.I believe that someone was building a legend for LHO to frame him up nicely.It worked quite well don't you think?"

Dig into issues further and you will see what is missing. Just an advice.
Good luck.

By Anders (Anders) on Monday, May 29, 2000 - 08:14 am: Edit

Rick,
by the way, what happened to my question about the bumping sound on the police radio?

By Anders (Anders) on Monday, May 29, 2000 - 08:22 am: Edit

Bryce,

is this as credible as all the other crackpots that has "confessed" about the assassination? Like Roscoe White? Like Jean Hill? Like James Files? Like Joseph Milteer? Like Tex Brown? etc. etc. and all the other maybe dozen confessing "grassy knoll shooters"? The list can be made long, and you critics seem to swallow everything completely.

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Monday, May 29, 2000 - 11:31 am: Edit

Anders-

You surprise me here. Each of the "Oswald" sightings I have mentioned has been commonly reported, in sources from the Warren exhibits to the HSCA volumes to Dale Myers' book. Get out there and read some of it yourself. Don't expect me to do your research for you.

Dale Myers' bumping sounds is an excellent example of using selective material to support a questionable theory. I secured myself a copy of the radio logs about eight years ago. Listening to it, I notice it is quite common for radios to be keyed and unkeyed, I'll bet I could count at least fifty times in the hour surrounding the assassination. Why do you suppose Myers never bothered to tell you that? He chose three or four "bumping" sounds and declared "I just know that is Benavides!" It is one of the silliest suppositions I have heard yet in this case.

Please explain to me what Roscoe White ever confessed to. He never said he was involved, although two other witnesses did place him on the knoll. I don't know what to think of his "diary". But if I was planning it, I wouldn't use him. And how can you possibly discredit Joseph Milteer's predictions when it is on tape and was in the possession of the FBI before November 22? I agree totally with you about Tex Brown and James Files. Neither of their story's matches the known record. I don't know what to think yet on Jean Hill. But she was there and we weren't.

You really shouldn't reject all these things, as a knee jerk reaction, just because you don't like them. You should read enough to give a reason. It would make you much more credible.

By J.B.Davidson (Bryce1956) on Wednesday, May 31, 2000 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Here is a tidbit that may interest you all.Every assassin in US history has claimed immediate credit for his deed.All of them boasted of their "accomplishment", with one notable exception:Lee Harvey Oswald.Even in a case that is used by Warren apologists as a parallel, the Lincoln assassination, Booth immediately jumped onto the stage at Fords and declared his guilt(somewhat elliptically) by quoting "Sic Semper Tyrannus!" If Oswald was the fame seeker that some claim he was, it would logically follow that he too, would claim credit for his deed.He did not.Instead, he vehemently denied all charges in either slaying.He had the oppertunity to confess on national TV, but instead asked for someone to come forward to represent him.This is completely out of character for a "lone nut", at least all the "lone nuts" that went before him.

By John Charles Cox (Jaybeegood) on Sunday, May 13, 2001 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Hello:
I'm new here, and just working on some stuff
regarding the Tippitt murder. I feel kind of like
a junior leaguer, compared to what I've read you guys talking about.
My question is simple. Where, or how did the WC test the slugs (the lead portion) of the cartridges that were found in Tippitt's body and how were they able to determine the manufacturer of each slug? Where is it in the WC vols?
Thanks for any help.
John

By John Charles Cox (Jaybeegood) on Sunday, May 13, 2001 - 08:24 pm: Edit

Hi guys, it's me again. . .
Sunday, the BBQ is through...and I'm back at the computer.
OK, what about the driver/passengers of the bus that Mrs. Markham (that dear, sweet, kind, totally beffudled lady) was waiting for? Did anybody ever interview him/them. Was he running on shcedule. Did he/they see anything as they approached the intersection Did they (and how long) arrive BEFORE/AFTER the shooting/ambulance arrival?
I haven't found anything on this. . .have you?
If you can share with me I'd appreciate it.
Thanks
John

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Monday, May 14, 2001 - 11:23 am: Edit

Hi, John-

There were three bullets removed from Tippit's body during the autopsy (CE603, CE604 and CE605). There is also CE602, which seems to encompass a fourth bullet as well as a police uniform button, both of which were removed earlier at Methodist Hospital. Apparently CE602, bullet and button, were turned over to the FBI labs for testing on November 23rd, while the remaining three bullets were retained by the Dallas Police. The report on CE602 states that, while it was determined to be of Winchester-Western manufacture, "the bullet, a copper coated lead bullet of .38 Special caliber, is so badly mutilated that there are not sufficient marks on its surface to permit identification of the particular weapon from which it was fired." On March 12, 1964, the Warren Commission requested that the FBI retrieve and test the remaining three bullets. On March 13, 1964, Dallas Homicide Chief Will Fritz apparently dug through his desk drawers and found the three slugs and turned them over to the FBI for testing. The FBI lab determined that two of the bullets were of Winchester-Western make while the third was made by Remington-Peters. The lab also determined that "no conclusion could be reached as to whether or not C251 through C253 (FBI labels for CE603 to CE605) were fired from the same weapon or whether they were fired from C15 (the revolver alledgedly found on Oswald)." Most of this is contained in CD 744 in volume three of the Warren Exhibits.

The bus that Helen Markham was trying to catch was scheduled to pass the corner of Patton and Jefferson at 1:12 pm. This is why your kind, but befuddled, lady left the washateria at 1:06 to try and catch it and why, if the Tippit shooting had actually happened at 1:14 to 1:16, as officially stated, she would have missed the shooting and caught her bus. I have found no records of whether the bus was on time that day and no notes or reports of interviews with the driver or passengers. Since Markham never got past 10th and Patton that afternoon, I'm curious as to why you might consider this important.

Hope this helps. I'm very interested in the Tippit shooting and would like to hear your views.

Thanks

Rick Holtman

By John Charles Cox (Jaybeegood) on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 08:37 am: Edit

Rick
Thanks for the information. Forgive me if I sound totally dense, but I'm still a little lost on exactly how the identity of the manufacturer of the slugs was determined by the FBI. Is there a specific test that the FBI does on lead slugs to identify the manufacturer(and the slug only, I'm not interested in the brass)?It would seem to me on the surface that a cartridge manufacturer would buy lead "bullets" in bulk to insert into their manufactured brass. If so, how could the slug be traced specifically to Winchester-Western OR Remmington-Peters (again we are talking about the lead portion of the round, not the cartridge case)?
With reference to the bus, I've not found in any books, etc. where the driver or any passengers were interviewed about the time-frame or location of the bus's arrival at it's just previous stop, it's usual spot to pick up Mrs. Markham and the stop just after. This is a time-line thing, and I'm just gathering information right now. In my mind, If the bus was early it could make a difference in the timing of the Tippitt murder, or if it was late the driver or a passenger may have looked out a window and seen something going on of interest.
OH, one other thing, do you know if the Dallas cab system in 1963 was on the "zone" method of charges or if they used trip meters?
Thanks.
John

By Rick S. Holtman (Rick) on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 04:22 pm: Edit

John-

Interesting question. Here is what I've been able to find out. Apparently each manufacturer keeps a log on each batch of material used for producing a run of bullets, as well as the precise chemical makeup of that batch. By analyzing the chemical properties of the Tippit bullets the FBI was able to look up not only the manufacturer but the lot number as well as the date and place of manufacture as well. I'm still looking for clarification on this and will let you know what else I find.

I wish I could help you about the Markham bus but I have no other information on that. You say that if the bus was early it would affect the timing of the shooting. This confuses me. Markham was a full block short of the bus stop when she ran into the shooting and I'm missing the connection here. The Tippit murder scene was visually blocked from the bus stop but I can see your point that it would be interesting to know if the driver or passengers may have taken note of the fleeing gunman.

The Dallas taxis in 1963 used meters to determine their fares. Oswald's ride from the greyhound station to the 500 block of Beckley cost him 95 cents. See the driver's testimony at:

http://www.informatik.uni-rostock.de/Kennedy/WCH/whaley1.html

Rick

By John Charles Cox (Jaybeegood) on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 06:01 pm: Edit

Rick:
thanks for the information and your very prompt reply. I agree that my questions about the bus may seem strange, but there is madness to my method.
I'm thinking about going back to school and this is the beginning of what I hope will be my Masters thesis. I'm not trying to solve the Tippit murder, just investigating the reporting of it and the writing about it from the area of accuracy vs entertainment. Don't have a fancy three line title yet, gotta work on that.
I know that today bullet/cartridge manufacturers add "trace elements" to their product and send samples to the FBI to log for reference in crime investigation, but are we certain that they did it in 1963 which, since it was before the electron microscope and neutron analysis, was the "dark ages" in crime investigation.
The bit about the taxi zone question is part of my effort to understand why LHO got out of the cab several blocks PAST his rooming house. When I was a page in congress, and later when I worked for the Smithsonian we "appropriated" a zone map from the back of a DC cab and saved ourselves